Ep139
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Adam Gragg: [00:00:00] So welcome to episode 139 of the Decide Your Legacy podcast. Today's episode is called Making New Friends. And I have a special guest who I'm going to introduce to you in just a moment here. He's been a guest on this podcast before. His name is Nick, but I'm your host, Adam Gragg.

I've been a coach and a family therapist, a mental [00:01:00] health professional for 25 years, over 25 years. My passion is helping people find. Transformational clarity to face their biggest fears, to live their legacy, to have a plan. I talk about stuff. I struggle with myself.

I don't have it all figured out. I'm a fellow traveler and I'll tell you, this topic of making new friends, it's a big deal. Holidays are here. In fact, you're going to see people that you don't see a lot throughout the year, a time to reconnect, a time to see old friends, a time to really take some risks, to make new friends as well.

And I can feel lonely over the holidays. For most of you, you may know that my family's not here in town, my biological family. I have my, my daughter Emerson here, but I don't have my siblings and my parents and everybody. So sometimes I can feel like, Oh my gosh, I don't have a lot of people over the holidays, but I realized that my friends and those connections, it makes a huge difference for me.

And so my hope for you is you're going to find inspiration. In fact, I know that by the end of this, you're going to find some [00:02:00] inspiration from Nick and his story. It's very inspiring and you're going to find some tools and some reminders of why you want to put some energy into this whole topic in making and investing in new connections.

So Nick. As I've mentioned before, I'd like to share something uncomfortable that I've done recently. with the audience because nothing is more important for your mental health, which we discussed in Facing Your Fears. Nothing is more damaging than playing it safe. So recently I have intentionally decided to trust more.

And in the past I have maybe trusted too much or too little, but trust and verify, giving people a chance. It's not been easy because I've been hurt in certain scenes, professionally and personally. But it's like letting go. And I've realized that that is a great thing. I mean, I'm still going to have people that maybe don't do, I mean, I'm not going to ever have perfect situations where everybody's trustworthy, but there's a lot of good people out [00:03:00] there, people I can trust.

So that's a cool thing. And I want the audience here to start off with an action as well. Like what is, a situation, a relationship that they could potentially trust more in that person, maybe by reaching out, maybe by opening up more, by being vulnerable, then they could actually build more trust.

I want you to think about a relationship. Maybe it's your brother, maybe it's your sister, maybe it's a friend, maybe it's a new person that you just met that you can actually reach out and connect with more, maybe because you have more free time. You could go grab lunch or coffee as you have more free time over the holidays,

a co worker. Man, I see great relationships spurred with co workers. So think about that as you get started here. And so we're going to talk and I'm going to ask Nick a bunch of questions today because, and Nick, if you could just introduce yourself, tell us a little about your background, things like that.

Nick Bertram: Okay. I'm 69 years old. Getting close to 70 a couple months. Oh my gosh. That, that's a milestone. What's the

Adam Gragg: date again?

Nick Bertram: February 20th. [00:04:00] Oh my gosh. 1955 so, okay, think about it. Cool. 1955. Yeah, so I've got a wife, Denise. I've got a stepson and two daughters along with six Grandchildren.

Three girls and three boys. Wonderful people, all of them. So great, great. I've been blessed.

Adam Gragg: What's your background professionally?

Nick Bertram: So I'm in the pipeline construction business. We build pipelines for fossil fuels, oil natural gas, that kind of stuff. And I've done that for Just about 50 years.

I started July 9th. Don't ask me how I remember that date. July 9th, 1975, I remember.

Adam Gragg: How big was the company when you started?

Nick Bertram: When I started, we probably had a dozen people, maybe a dozen pieces of equipment, small company, operated out of a trailer.

Yeah, that was our office. That was it.

Adam Gragg: What was the revenue of the company at that point?

Nick Bertram: Oh, I don't know. If we [00:05:00] got up

Adam Gragg: to a couple hundred thousand, I'd be Really? When you started? Yeah. Yeah. And so at its peak, how many people did you guys employ?

Nick Bertram: So, at its peak, we were working about 2, 500 people. ~So, a ~

Adam Gragg: ~large ~you were a part of a company growing from 12 people to 2, 500 people.

Nick Bertram: I was. That's quite a cool thing. It was. It's an experience, for sure going from a little company to a bigger company and being bought by a corporation. I've seen the private part and the corporation part, so it's been quite an experience.

Adam Gragg: I know we're talking about building friendships. Connecting with new people. So what led to your interest in, having this passion to build new connections?

Nick Bertram: That's an interesting thing. Cause I was pretty work intense, I guess is a good way to put it. So, developing friendships, I had a lot of work friends, a lot of people that you can call friends, but they were work friends. And so, as my role started to diminish, I had more time and be able to look around a little [00:06:00] bit and I could see a need for some relationships beyond what I had developed.

Because, you know, when the, at some point your career grows away and there's a need to Unless you want to isolate yourself I could see a need for, for doing that. And there was a struggle with me stepping away from my role in, in the business. So I had reached out to, to get some help dealing with that.

And through that, started to see the importance of relationships and how they can help. Get through some of those struggles in life. Okay, those people that, those close connections would be something that could help you maneuver through those difficult times, which I thought I could handle everything, but that's not quite true.

Adam Gragg: Was there something that happened that made it stick? Like, I can't do this anymore the way I'm doing it?

Nick Bertram: Specifically, yes. So, I went into a financial advisor to check on my [00:07:00] stuff, and in the process of that, I got kind of, emotional about the whole thing. He had seen this before in guys, I suppose, cause he'd manages a lot of people's money. So, at that point, I realized, and he did too. In fact, he instructed me or asked me if he said, Well, I can help you financially, but you probably need to get some other help first. Which was very insightful. I appreciate his advice. And so, through that, I got a hold of Bob.

Decide Your Legacy, and Adam, that's been a number of years ago. Yes, that's right. And started that journey. So yeah, it's been quite,

Adam Gragg: yeah,

Nick Bertram: quite the experience.

Adam Gragg: You were a guest on a podcast maybe a year or two ago on Journaling, The Power of Journaling. That's actually a really popular episode that we're going to link to in the show notes.

I know that had an impact to get some insight into your thoughts and everything. It did. And so that being it, that was a goal that you set, and [00:08:00] then I remember you telling me you set a goal to say, I want to make, you know, go deeper in my connections. It was like intentional, like, okay, I'm, I want to do this.

So what have you, when did you realize that that was actually a passion? I mean, it's one thing to say, Adam told me, or my friends told me, or somebody else told me that like, I should build deeper connections, the financial planner or whatever. When did it become a passion for you to go and say, I'm going to go different, I'm going to do this thing differently?

Nick Bertram: I think it, it, I don't know if it's a place that just jumped out at me. It was, it kind of developed. Getting, I think you develop that by getting to know some people. If you make it purposeful, like I did. I joined a. I joined the church, and then a men's group, and I'm purposeful just to get to know some people.

I thought the men's group at church Small group, it would be a place where I could get to know people, and did that, you know, I could see that I wanted something deeper than just those, than just, Hi, how are [00:09:00] you? You know, the weather's good. See how, you know, what your favorite sports teams did.

Something a little deeper than that, where you actually get to know somebody. Where you can kind of work through issues or just have that kind of connection that Helps you see life I guess in a different a different way.

Adam Gragg: Yeah, and so I talked about last week that As I talked about how to make, new friends, one thing that it really helps when one reason why you want to make new connections and go deeper with the ones you have is it's really important to make you resilient mentally, like mental health stuff.

Like those connections make a huge difference. And, you can check out that podcast if you'd like to. I mean, it's some basic reasons why and some things you can actually do, but I'm curious, for you, what has been the biggest challenge for you to overcome in meeting new people?

Nick Bertram: Well, that's an easy one. I can meet new people easy. I can walk up to somebody and start a [00:10:00] conversation. That's extremely easy for me. What gets difficult for me is beyond that, when I have to open up and be vulnerable to people. That's where I struggle, because at that point, you gotta open up.

If you want to get to know somebody deeper, you have to be Willing to let them know you and I struggled with doing that because I'm kind of a private person I guess maybe that's it or maybe some fear if they get to know me They you know, this this relationship is going nowhere. They'll think less of me then Then what I want them to yeah, and so those that's extremely hard for me to go past those initial Conversations that are easy to do, for me anyway.

I know other people struggle with that, but going past that opening up is really tough.

Adam Gragg: So is there a default fear that you have when you meet somebody new?

Nick Bertram: Yeah, I feel like [00:11:00] I'm not interesting, that I won't be able to hold a conversation because I don't have anything that interests them, or I'm going to do something, say something goofy, which I can do pretty easily.

But, yeah, just that kind of feeling. You can say goofy things? I can, yeah. Well, that's good. I like that. I like to say goofy things. Well, yours

Adam Gragg: might be purposeful. Mine aren't. I see. Okay. You know, what is fascinating is you started with your company at Jomax Construction with 12 people and then it grew to 22, 000 plus people.

Okay. So what was, and you were at the end there, you were actually running the company. I was, yep. And is the CEO. Yeah. And then people listening are like, well, why would you be? Because you wouldn't have been perceived as being worrying about what people would think. In that role, were you worrying about people perceiving you as goofy or whatever?

Not being good enough or whatever you're saying? Or no? Not.

Nick Bertram: [00:12:00] That role is usually connected with, well, it is connected with the business. And I knew the business forward and backwards. That wasn't a problem. Now, if I would have asked you about my personal life. That would have been a little different. A lot of them didn't know.

Maybe they didn't care. That doesn't make any difference. But I was comfortable in the role because it's a work role. But opening up in that, which when you run a company, that became more of an issue. Later, part of that whole process of finding a new leader for the company and that, that became more of a deal.

But No, running the company wasn't a personal thing. It was more of a business or work thing that I didn't really worry about that. There's still, you know, you don't want to look foolish. You don't want to do something stupid. And there's always that, like, yeah, do I really know what I'm doing? Is this role above me?

That's a given, I think. Most people [00:13:00] have those kinds of struggles. And I, I did, but I didn't

Adam Gragg: So you felt like you were an expert, or you really knew the pipeline construction business. I did. Well. Yeah. So that gave you confidence in those interactions. I did. But in the interactions that are more personal, not so much.

Nick Bertram: Not so much.

Adam Gragg: What does it mean to you to be vulnerable in a relationship?

Nick Bertram: Well, it's a huge thing, obviously, because, to me, to have someone understand The whole point of a relationship, or I, my opinion of a strong relationship, someone understands you deeply where if you have an issue, they can help you work through that, or give an example in their life, and you understand them, so you can have a conversation, if you don't understand that person and, they don't understand you or know what you've gone through, it's hard to get that connection that [00:14:00] helps you just maneuver through life, I think.

Mm-hmm . And maneuver through, especially transitions in life.

Adam Gragg: So is there a definition of what a vulnerable interaction would be versus one where you're not being vulnerable?

Nick Bertram: Well, yes. One where you're not vulnerable is you keep some things hidden. Like if you have a fear of, well name it. You're not afraid to voice it. Like whoever you're talking to, listen, I'm afraid of being pushed out of the company, out of the way in the business, whatever.

You have that fear and you hide that and not bring, bring it out so that person doesn't know you don't know what, that other person struggling, he doesn't know how you're struggling.

Adam Gragg: You're, yeah, they could judge you or they could reject you or they could use it against you.

They could. It's vulnerable because it's honest.

Nick Bertram: Yeah.

Adam Gragg: But you don't know what they're going to do with it. So that makes it a big, it makes it scarier.

Nick Bertram: It is scary. And I had to do that with a guy that's taken my place. You know, I asked him [00:15:00] to make sure that, that he was honest with me and his feelings.

And I would be the same. And that wasn't a business thing. That was more about a personal thing so we could understand each other so the transition would go smooth.

Adam Gragg: Yeah. How's it going?

Nick Bertram: Great. It's going well. Yes. We've done well maneuvering through that minefield. So, yeah. Because he's been open and made decisions and I've been open with him when I think.

Adam Gragg: And I think it's such a cool thing that the company has you as a, because you're a successor, you've been able to mentor and stay on. And then when you retire officially, I guess you'll have been there 50 years. Yeah, that's right. That's going to be a wild party. I don't know. I just want to, I just want to walk away and call it a day.

So, what do you love most about building new relationships? Connecting with new people. Or going deeper with people like, you know, Brian or whatever.

Nick Bertram: I think that feeling of connection and the same way with [00:16:00] the guys in the men's group at church and that there's that connection there that feels satisfying. It's hard to put a finger on, on it. It's not something you can, well maybe you can rate it, but I can't.

It's just that feeling of there's someone there that understands you that you could go to if you get in a bind or that you could be honest with, which to me, that's a really big thing.

Adam Gragg: That is a really big thing. It's a really big thing, yeah. You ever think like, well, why, I don't know, I do this sometimes, like when I have When I feel like I've had a good conversation with somebody, and I feel like I have, or the connection, like, why didn't I do this before?

Or like, why do I feel lonely when I realize that, okay, that's a good,

Nick Bertram: yeah. Because it, it, it's changed my life in the way I look at people. And even my spiritual life, my, at home, at church, in the church, is different because of the way I [00:17:00] react to people. Where I'm not quite so guarded, and at work too, the way I understand people, or the way that I interact, I wish, this would have been extremely useful to me, to be in that position years ago, because it, and maybe not, maybe useful is not, well, it's close enough, but I could have I think people could have used some more insight on my part.

Adam Gragg: Yeah.

Nick Bertram: So I regret some of that, really, that I wasn't more involved in some of the struggles they were going through.

Adam Gragg: And you're obviously, you've changed a lot with that. I guess, how do you get past that if you have regrets?

Nick Bertram: Well, there's nothing I can do about that. I have tried to change and be more open with the people at work I think I had some success in that and being a little more human has made my whole [00:18:00] role a lot better for the company and for those around me too.

Adam Gragg: What's a specific success you've had?

Nick Bertram: I can tell. So I had a guy that was struggling, an area manager, and we had I have been part of the legacy group at your company with that, and we had talked about questions, open ended questions, and working through them.

Anyway, I had a guy that was struggling. He decided he was a manager in there, and decided he'd had enough. which disturbed me. So I, drove south to Oklahoma where he was and had to, was going to be rather forceful on him staying around. Yeah, you're going to stay. And which is, I guess what you would have done in the past.

I would have, yes. I would have been hard nosed about it because I'd, I'd spend some time with the guy. I liked him, smart, smart guy and ask him some questions. And through that, some open ended questions and could see that he was struggling with good reason. And got to understand him a [00:19:00] little better, and, you know, at the end of that conversation, I realized that this wasn't the place for him, not because he couldn't do it, because he was a smart guy doing a good job.

It was just his background. It was just hard for him, and he had to work through that before he was ever gonna be happy. And we had that conversation and keep in contact yet. And so, I look at that, even though he left the company, left a hole there, it was still a success.

Adam Gragg: Yeah. Would you have said it was a success ten years ago?

Nick Bertram: I would not have.

Adam Gragg: I know, isn't that interesting? I knew the answer. That wasn't really a question, that was like a Yeah, no, it would have been, I would have put

Nick Bertram: it down as a failure.

Adam Gragg: That's amazing.

Nick Bertram: Yeah, like, but I look at it as, in the last several years, as one of the biggest successes because I know what he can do and what he told me he'd like to do and that amazed me.

Adam Gragg: Which is what?

Nick Bertram: He could work with young men and had that [00:20:00] passion, and I hope that's what he does. Maybe he'll listen to this. I hope that's what he does because it

Adam Gragg: He'd do well at it. Yeah. Well, you get to, we can share this with everybody, you know, so that'd be cool, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I remember you talking about that thinking that is really powerful. Yeah. And that's a new perspective. It is. Which making, one reason that making new friends is really powerful, just people, good people that you're connecting with is you get new ideas and perspectives. Like the Legacy Group is a coaching group.

It's a group of eight people that really don't know each other unless they've met in a group before. And it is a place where. They get to be vulnerable and open and challenged to grow and so, yeah.

Nick Bertram: That's absolutely right. Those people in that group or groups, I feel like I know them as well as I know anybody.

I have that close connection with them and you know, it was just however many meetings there were, six or eight, I can't remember, but from being open, and that's part of the process, being [00:21:00] open, vulnerable, discussing issues, you really get that kind of connection with it that feels, you feel something that you might feel for somebody I've known for years.

Adam Gragg: You're helping each other out. Yeah. And you're realizing there's a lot of commonality. Yep. People are asking questions. We're solving issues. Yep. That people bring to the table. Everybody has a big goal for that quarter. And we meet every other week, twice a month for three months, a quarter.

Achieving that specific goal, but doing it as a group. And it's a fear. I mean, it's facing a fear is a value core value of Decide Your Legacy. And that's what people are bringing to the table there. I was terrified.

Nick Bertram: I was terrified.

Adam Gragg: Hey, I mean, a lot of the people have been, we're forming one, a new group right now.

So there are a couple of slots at least in that group, I believe. So if you want to check that out, you can always reach out to me and Decide Your Legacy. And so one of the reasons why you want to make new connections is because it gives you new perspectives on things.

And for you, you know, tell me [00:22:00] about a time that you have been afraid to make a connection and that you did and basically you faced that little voice in your head to overcome the situation.

Nick Bertram: Well, I mean, the legacy group was one of them. I could have said, no, Weasley, I just don't want to do it, I don't want to take the time, I don't want to go through that anxiety of going to the meetings and opening up about my personal problems or my business problems, whatever, I don't.

But, you know, one of the biggest things is, And this is a group of people, it was a men's group at church, but when, because going through Legacy, I, that pushed me to go to that group, which I didn't know those people very well, and so there was some anxiety there, but.

Adam Gragg: In your men's group at church?

Nick Bertram: Yeah. So, it was a fear. And then sitting in there and listening to their different ideas and the struggles they were going through was just, it's been so good and helpful that Oh, it helped change [00:23:00] my perspective on people, really.

Adam Gragg: How, if you'd say, before I had that newer perspective, what was the old perspective and what's the new perspective about getting to know people?

Nick Bertram: My old would have been, well, I'll go to church because I think it's important, but I don't need to connect. I'll go and go home and now I want to be a part of the group, just like different areas of my life.

Even my marriage, I think I have a bigger desire to be open. You can be closed off in a marriage just as well as you can in anything else. Just wanting to be involved, I guess, with people's lives and if you can make a difference, fine.

Adam Gragg: You have a default. I know for me at times when I'm not at my best, I can think like a new relationship, there's somebody that could hurt me, or that, could, it can be even just like totally not reality. Like that's going to be bad. It's going to be draining or they're gonna not, you [00:24:00] know, like me or, and then if I, if I shift it, it's amazing.

Cause like my, my fear can turn to anxiety. If I remember that for one, like, Maybe I can learn a whole bunch from them, and they could be really friendly. They could be somebody interesting. At least I keep the objective in mind, like, I'm getting to know somebody, and they may or may not be somebody that, but I'm just getting to know somebody.

Nick Bertram: Yeah, it may not work. It may be something, there may not be that connection there. There, there may be something in their lives that prevent them from being That person that can connect with you, but that's part of the process. I think, you know, you run into some people that just aren't that fit.

Adam Gragg: People are so interesting that if, but my mindset going into it, it's totally different posture. It's interesting. It's fun. Who knows what's going to happen. You're letting go of the outcome. Like it's crazy how that happens and things happen that are good. And like, I mean the opportunities I would miss if I [00:25:00] had that, you know, but it's not like I struggle with it every day still.

It's not like I don't have, I mean, I struggle with anxiety every day in relationships. Like, It's something, especially right when I wake up, like I'm in the worst. I am not in a good mood when I first wake up. I'm serious. Like I'm mad at everything. I'm just like, I am. I'm glad though. But he gets to really see me right when I wake up.

Cause they would not want to be around me.

Nick Bertram: I think that's really common waking up.

Adam Gragg: I guess it's like my mind is just not, it's just not tuned up, man. It's hard. What would you say is one of the resources or tools that has been the most useful thing? in making new connections. One of the most useful things in making new connections.

Nick Bertram: There's a couple things. My natural curiosity has been, a huge advantage I have because I'm extremely curious about what people are doing, what they're thinking, what's happened to them. So that's, you can use that, right? And then I think legacy [00:26:00] group, But you being hard nosed about what kind of questions, yeah.

I am, I am hard nosed about open ended questions. Yeah, open ended questions. And that's a big deal. If you ask questions that people It's not a yes or no answer or a short answer where they can dive into the problem or drive into the topic and talk about it. It's a big deal.

Adam Gragg: Yeah. So that tool you've brought out of there and using your other avenues.

You use it at work and you use it at home.

Nick Bertram: I do. I try to be purposeful because otherwise I'll wonder why you're doing that instead of How is it you came to that decision or something rather than Man, yeah.

Adam Gragg: Why are you doing that? That's not an open ended question. No, that's not. That's an opinion that's generally judgment.

So, and we can share our opinions through questions, even disguised as open ended questions. Like an open ended question is going to be a what or a how generally. I mean, or can you give me an example or, you know, what do you, you know, tell a story about that or those are, they're open ended in general sense.

It's like they get people to [00:27:00] elaborate and to think, and you don't know the answer. You don't know the answer, it cannot be that you know the answer, like your leading question. And I've done a little, even in this interaction here, I'm trying to be open ended, but there's a few things I'm trying to, as an interviewer, trying to get you to make sure you share stories and things, or I know it already and I want the audience to hear, so it's a little bit different in this kind of context, but it's crucial and it really makes for great, fun interactions.

And so you, by being hard nosed, I'm like, I coach people in the session to say, You know, that's not an open, I mean, try rephrasing that. How can you rephrase that in a way or not be leading in your question, not leading already to a specific answer?

Nick Bertram: Yeah, and that's you have to be purposeful about it when you talk to people because it is a hard thing if you don't actually think about it and you'll wonder off track.

Adam Gragg: Yeah. You can wander off track easily, if that's the way. And it's kind of like, I tell people that, this is really hard. Really hard to go down this path. But the benefits are worth [00:28:00] it. It's a long game. It's hard at first, easy now. Hard later, hard now, easy later, for sure. So if you found this podcast helpful so far, hit the link to Shatterproof Yourself.

You can purchase the full version of Shatterproof Yourself. These are seven small steps to a giant leap in your mental health. And you can also check out the free version, which is a, 30 minute video and worksheet. It's on the same topic, but it's an abbreviated version. Shatter, Proof Yourself, Light, Seven Small Steps to a Giant Leap in Your Mental Health.

One of those steps, step seven, is on building friendships. So, it's on some of my favorite tips for building friendships. So, it's a mental health tip because that's pretty important when it comes to your mental health. As we've shared, having good, healthy, solid connections, and people are lonely.

I kid you not, there are so many lonely people out there, and there's good people, and a lot of it has to do with the way that we have limited interaction socially, [00:29:00] sometimes, because of technology. Some of it has to do with just this common fear of intimacy, of connection, of getting hurt. Why do we want, our ego is going to try and keep us safe, Our true self is going to help us connect and love.

And I mean, love is a weird thing to share on a podcast and everything, but that's really what it is. It's like reaching out to people to connect. You've got to risk to do that, whether it's with your kids, your spouse, your friends, your coworkers. And that's really what you're doing, which is so exciting.

So another real reason why you want to build new connections is they will help you to reach your goals. And that sounds selfish, but it's true. And I get, it's a both and. I mean, a lot of things in life, the healthiest things are both ands.

I find that when I share my goals with good friends, I'm much more likely to achieve them. And

I'm

much more likely to have a healthier perspective about them.

And

I'm much more likely to actually, They have resources come about that I didn't even see were there, which is so cool. It's like, so they help you to be [00:30:00] accountable.

They help you to actually see your potential. They help you move forward, push through the tough stuff. And that's what I see in Legacy Group as well. So, when you, Nick, tell me how have friends helped you in recent times reach goals that you've set out? You know, let's say like Legacy Group or let's say just people, how have they helped you reach some goals and what might those goals have been or are?

Nick Bertram: Like at Legacy Group is a good example. I had I was interested in Connecting a little deeper with our pastor there at church, and he leads the group.

Adam Gragg: Your men's group.

Nick Bertram: Men's group. Yeah, men's group. Right. Okay. Men's group. So, I had we had talked about that in men's group or in a legacy group some, and one of the, the, my commitments was to set up a lunch with him and, and talk about some things, because I have some anxiety talking to a pastor, because some of the things in my life, you know, I get.

I you know, it's just, [00:31:00] he's a, I don't know if you'd say authority figure, that's probably not right, but there's that anxiety because I'm a layman and he's a pastor and anyway, so there was some concern about that, but I did. I set up with him and I used to lunch with him and we've connected and I feel a lot more comfortable with the guy now.

I can have a conversation with, with him and I think some, some bigger things will lead from that. So that's an example of some commitment that I made in the group that I wasn't willing to break.

Adam Gragg: Yes, and you made that in front of the people.

Nick Bertram: I made it in front of everybody and had to answer to it.

Adam Gragg: And come back and then talked about it.

Right. And then from, how did you feel making that connection with the pastor? Like after you had made it, how did it feel?

Nick Bertram: Well, I was nervous about it at first, but afterwards, that's a great feeling that I had connected with somebody. He understood more than what I thought and shared some of his own struggles [00:32:00] with me.

Some of that anxiety about just even talking to him at church, you know, just some of that disappeared with that, and so that changed our whole relationship, I think, now whether he feels that same way, I think he does, but,

Adam Gragg: so what was the specific anxiety that you had, if you could pinpoint it? Was it like specific fear that you had in that relationship? You probably already shared some of it, but if you could share a little more in depth.

Nick Bertram: With him?

Adam Gragg: Yeah.

Nick Bertram: Well, there's that, that he may judge me because of my past, and I might not be something that

Adam Gragg: Okay.

Nick Bertram: Can be of. You know, I want to be someone in the church that's, useful, I guess, and I just worried that he might think that I wasn't up to the standards and that was just an assumption on my part, right, but through visiting with him and having that connection, You know, I realized that that was some of my anxiety and my [00:33:00] thoughts rather than that.

So hopefully we can build on that. That's my desire.

Adam Gragg: So you felt that he would ask you about your past and that maybe he would use that against you potentially? Or you wouldn't?

Nick Bertram: Or just think littler of me than what I wanted them to. I wanted him to think that Well, I wanted him to see me for who I was, right?

Not my past or what I've done. Yeah, and you know, I So there was there's some things in my past. I'm not comfortable with and so Getting that out and I was open with him because I felt that I needed to and

Adam Gragg: Yeah.

Nick Bertram: So that was good.

Adam Gragg: That is so interesting.

Nick Bertram: It took some yeah,

Adam Gragg: I know.

Nick Bertram: Right. But I was committed.

I was committed.

Adam Gragg: Exactly. And I have found that when, cause I have that fear as well, that as people ask me about some part of my past that I don't want to share.

Nick Bertram: Yeah.

Adam Gragg: And sometimes when I speak or talk, I just share it more up front. Like, you know, I've been through a [00:34:00] new client or whatever.

Like I'll tell them, I've had some rough things happen. I mean, like, I used to, I was unemployed for seven months years ago, and that was Something I was just ashamed of. I didn't want to, I didn't, didn't want to talk about it.

I didn't want to act like it happened. And then I started talking about it and realizing I can really help people with this. And then now it's like, yeah, I was, I can help, you know? And then I went through obviously a difficult situation seven years ago, getting end of a marriage. And I mean, I didn't want to talk about that.

And I'm still, you know, it's not something I. It's kind of like, you know, it's, I just, it's me. And if people are going to can't accept it, it's like, I'm more okay with myself and everything. And most people, they really, you know, I don't find it. It hurts me real and everything. So

Nick Bertram: it's surprising how that works.

Cause I, the pastor had asked me about, you know, my life, my situation. I'd kind of skirted around the edge of the thing and wasn't entirely open. I felt like I needed to really, to feel comfortable. [00:35:00] So it was, yeah, felt good, felt good to get it out there. His hand.

How did he respond

Adam Gragg: when he learned more things about you?

Nick Bertram: Well, again, to kick you outta his office, he didn't get up and walk away, so I guess that was, was good. I think that Are you still struggling with this now? Like how does he think of you? Like No, I, I don't. No, I really don't.

Adam Gragg: You know, it's like, you're, you're judged on your merits of who you are.

I mean, I wanted the audience to know, like, your background professionally, because I think it helps people relate to you. And even your things, because you've had great success. You've had things that you wish were different. I've had things the same way and I want them to know I'm just, I'm just me.

And that, but they can relate because thinking, well, he can relate now. Cause someone would look at you and your role running a company and be like, Oh, he had it all figured out. He must be not care about rejection because he wouldn't be in that position if he, you know, really that's what people think sometimes.

I think that way sometimes cause it's intimidating where you think people are kind of intimidated by the success you've had and everything, but don't realize that you're, you're as human as anybody. In fact, you may have bigger fears than them. You do, you do. It's like,

Nick Bertram: it's That [00:36:00] anxiety of not thinking you're good enough for the position, that you may fail in that position, and people are gonna look down at you.

It's some pressure until you kind of adapt to it. But, and then, they can look at your life and think, well, everything's great. But behind the scenes, your personal life, and mine was, I mean, I did well at business, but my personal life was Sometimes difficult. And most people didn't know that because I didn't open up about it.

Adam Gragg: And so now, now you open up and

Nick Bertram: I try, I'm still, I'm not perfect on that, but I, think I'm getting better.

Adam Gragg: So can you share an example of how you've been more vulnerable professionally? Outside of what you shared with people that has been surprising to people and actually helped?

Nick Bertram: I've tried to put this idea through with clients about being more open. And I've tried to teach. Tried to talk to our company about being more open with clients of people they know professionally about our company, about [00:37:00] themselves even, but a lot of just what's happening with the company and all that.

And I think that isn't exactly the same as a friendship. There is that, but there's the same kind of give and take that people want to be closed off about that, but sometimes it's good to For that open, closed off. About what? About things that might be difficult or. that the company may be struggling.

Say you have a safety issue that your company's struggling with. Rather than being open with a client, you may want to keep that to yourself. ~And yeah, and just things like ~

Adam Gragg: ~that. ~You don't want to tell the client because then they're going to be like, well, we don't want to work with you.

Nick Bertram: Yeah.

Adam Gragg: Cause you guys are having safety problems.

What? Someone's going to get hurt?

Nick Bertram: Yeah. But usually if you're open and they're willing to work with you They trust you because you're willing to say,

Adam Gragg: yeah, we've had some safety things we're working on. We are trying to adjust this. Here's where we're at.

We're open. Right. That makes a [00:38:00] lot of sense.

Nick Bertram: We'd appreciate any insight that you can give us. Same way with working with a friend, I think. If this is where I'm at, this is my faults, I just, here it is. Is there some way you can help me or I can help you? Yes. And I don't want to

Adam Gragg: say that, like, I don't want to tell them that I'm struggling here.

Right? I don't want them to know. They're expecting, like a client, like they're expecting me to have it all figured out. So then they're going to see me as incompetent. I used to try and be perfect a lot. Now I don't. I used to think, like, if I ever had anything come up that I had to, like, cancel an appointment or I'm just such a failure.

It's rare, but I'm human. I mean, I'm sick. I, I, I mean, I'm not sick very much. But to say, I gotta deal with something with my daughter, let's reschedule or whatever, it used to be so hard.

But I'm much more like just have fun. Yeah. Enjoy. They're human. Just like me. They are. Yeah. I know. And they don't expect that. I guess the real difficult ones [00:39:00] expect perfection, but like what, you know,

Nick Bertram: They may not be the ones who want to work.

Adam Gragg: I know. That's what you, that's what you think.

Can you tell me about a time when you tried to reach out to somebody and you encountered some rejection or it didn't go well and how you handled that?

Nick Bertram: Most of the time it's so the perception is not reality I've had a few places where I've opened up with people mostly people that I worked with, that I thought were less than, less than open back with me. Like, more guarded than, But specific incidents would be hard for me to say.

Adam Gragg: Yeah, that's interesting. You thought it would happen, but it hasn't really happened. But yeah, most

Nick Bertram: of the time when you open up with people, they pretty, people are, I think, hungry for that kind of connection. They're drawn to that. Kind of drawn to that. There's a few times I can think of where there's people that either didn't click or they had a different vision of how things, I can [00:40:00] think of a couple instances where My vision was different than theirs and being open with them really didn't solve the issue.

It just wasn't, they had a different point of view and they weren't willing to go any further with it.

Adam Gragg: It's kind of like you're dating somebody and you realize you're not a good fit.

Nick Bertram: It's been so long since I did

Adam Gragg: that. No, I know, I know, well, you know.

I, yeah, I know, so. No, it's something like that. Yeah, something like that. Like, hey, we're just not philosophically a good fit. We need a great person. Yeah, sometimes it just

Nick Bertram: isn't meant to be. There's some people that you Still just talk about whether the Chiefs won or not and not how their family's doing or how coping with whatever, so there's that, but that's part of the process, I think, that you're going to have to accept if, if you have to accept that.

It's rare, but I think that's part of it. But it will happen. It will happen. It doesn't go well. Yeah. It's not the end of the world.

Adam Gragg: Yeah. So how do you make it not the end of the world if it does happen? Cause you're like, it didn't go well. [00:41:00] And then you stepped away from the interaction.

And then how do you cope with that at that point? What are your go to?

Nick Bertram: I think you just realize that that person's out of fit. There's somebody else there that That want that kind of relationship and it may be a deal you come back later and give it another whirl because that's true yeah it could they could have had a bad day maybe

Adam Gragg: they're know how to do you're talking more professional here What if it didn't go well with that pastor?

You shared some things. He's like, you know what, you should leave the church.

Nick Bertram: Yeah, well

Adam Gragg: Well, then what would you have done like because not that that would ever happen but it could happen I mean people have had i've heard people have really bad experiences

Nick Bertram: Well, there's more than one church in Great Bend.

So I know I could have Yeah, I think, well, I can understand your point of view, but maybe something like that could happen. If it did, your life would go on, you'd start over in some place, but Usually, I've, if something like that, if it doesn't click, it's worth another try.

If you need to have a, if you can have another conversation. I may have had a [00:42:00] bad day. You know what

Adam Gragg: I would do? Yeah. In that situation? Is I'd call one of my friends.

Nick Bertram: Yeah.

Adam Gragg: And I would talk to them about what just happened and then I would call. Right. You know, one of my friends in particular, Ben, would be like, I'd just call him.

He'd tell me something like, It was worth it. It was good. And you know what? What'd you learn from it?

Nick Bertram: Yeah, I could call my brother or there's a couple other people and say, listen, this guy said this. What is it? Yeah,

Adam Gragg: I know. It's like, so that's where friends can be really helpful.

I remember last week we, or a couple of weeks ago, we had like a legacy group reunion and a guy was saying how he was trying to go deeper in a relationship and it actually turned out really well.

Nick Bertram: Mm hmm.

Adam Gragg: But one of the questions I had was, well, what if it didn't? And he said, it would still have been worth it.

Yeah, I believe that's right.

Nick Bertram: It still would have been, if the pastor would have said, listen, you're not a fit here because of your past or whatever. It still would have been worth a shot.

Adam Gragg: And I had that thought, like I remember that I, I, you know, lead a, I lead senior boys at youth group [00:43:00] and I remember thinking after my divorce that I wasn't going to be, and I was really like, you know, That was really cool that they still, and I mean, I have a ton to offer, you know, like fart machines and pooters.

It is for sure. It's perfect for senior boys. That'll get you in the door. Totally. They love that stuff. So it is, yeah, for sure. It's perfect for youth group stuff. Okay. So, one final question. So what has been the best thing about getting on this journey?

Actually, to what has been the best thing I'm getting on this journey to build new connections that you're on now at 69 years old that maybe you weren't on at 65, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, well, the best thing is the people,

Nick Bertram: of course, that I've come to know better.

Adam Gragg: It's awesome, huh?

Nick Bertram: Yeah, that never would have happened and those are the things, especially, and maybe I'm just saying this because I'm older, but those connections are, become more important to me.

Thank you. And I think you [00:44:00] need those in life, well you need them when you're younger too, but I didn't take advantage of it then, but those connections with the people are the biggest thing, those people are important.

Adam Gragg: Yeah. Isn't that cool? That is so cool. I know. You know what?

One of the cool things too is like in my career, just because of, I don't know, it's something about me or whatever, but like I work with a lot of really professionally successful people that don't feel like they have like the complete life, you know? And so like financial planners send people to me or just, I work with a lot of people that run companies or whatever have and do.

Yeah. But, you know, it's the same thing. It's like, I get to see in you, like, how rich and deep it is, like, your life now, and like, not that you didn't have, people look at you and say, you had a great life, you know, like, I want to be like Nick, or whatever, but then you have this new, pieces missing that you're getting, and it's like, Big pieces.

Big pieces. Okay. And so, yeah, I mean, that's the most important. Like, this is crucial. Right. And yeah, I mean, I'm curious too, how has this impacted your relationship with your kids [00:45:00] at all? I think good. I, I've,

Nick Bertram: I've spent more time with them. We did some, like, over Thanksgiving , I took a risk and asked them the questions on the sheet, the gratitude questions.

There was like 25 of them or something. Told them we're all going to sit down and write this out, right? Oh, really? Every question? Every question. I'll read the question, you write it out. We'll put it in an envelope, a year from now we're going to open

Adam Gragg: it up and see if they're changed. No way! Yes! So they didn't read them off?

They just put it in an envelope? It's like a time capsule. Yeah. That's so cool.

Nick Bertram: Was, but those, that kind of connection, I don't know if I would have did that before.

And they, I thought first, well, some of them will, nah, we don't want to do that stupid. But even the, the kids that the grandkids did it and their parents, it was

Adam Gragg: Wow.

Nick Bertram: I didn't look either.

Adam Gragg: So you're just storing that until next year? Yeah. Are you going to pull that out? It's in an

Nick Bertram: envelope there in the house.

Adam Gragg: Cool. Well, we got a link to that article too. 25 Gratitude Questions. Yeah. You're welcome. Alright, we got another link in the show notes here, so, very cool, yeah, what's your vision like for where you want to be in 10 years?[00:46:00]

with relationships and everything. I wanna,

Nick Bertram: I still think that I need, I don't know if my relations, they're not as strong as I would like them. I know that when you talk about your friend Ben, that's an inspiration to me. Absolutely an inspiration, because you can talk to them, you say you talk to them a lot, you can talk to them about things, and that's the kind of friendship I want, and I'm working at developing those, but I don't know that I'm at that stage, so in ten years, I want that group of people to be there.

Either a church or, or some place that, that, that I can have those kind of, and that's really,

Adam Gragg: that's cool.

Nick Bertram: Yeah, the rest will fall in somewhere.

Adam Gragg: You know, I think you described something that a lot of people, there's one thing you mentioned in this podcast too, that I think resonates with a lot of people because just being, I'm being a family therapist.

I've been that for a long time. I see So many people that talk to me and they grieve the fact that they don't have the kind of relationship they want with a sibling. And they have a [00:47:00] sibling that they have a difficult situation. And you describe your brother as a friend. And what is the reason you can describe him as a friend?

I think that the audience would really benefit from hearing that.

Nick Bertram: Because I can talk to him about Pretty much anything. And sometimes that's not easy but I can talk to him about most everything. And he knows my life. I know his, which is a neat thing, right?

Cause that's a special kind of friend. If you can open up and they, are that kind of person that you can say, yeah, I did this or did that. They're the kind, you know, he knows me, I know him. So, all these things through this years have strengthened that, that I've learned about, In Legacy Group, working with you, that has strengthened that relationship.

You know, asking the right questions and just being open with him. ~And so that's been a great thing ~

Adam Gragg: ~too. ~I've seen you talk, I've heard you talk about that and the openness that you have. And I'm envious of that because I, [00:48:00] I would love, that's one of my hopes is that my siblings Yeah. Can have that, because there's, there's, there, it can be, I hold back.

But you seem like you have a lot of safety in your relationship with your, with your brother. I do, yeah. So you tell your brother you love him? I do. You do? Yeah. That's cool. We even do it on text. Do you really? Yeah. That's so cool. Man, I mean, that's such a challenging thing for people.

It is. It's harder than what you think. It is. It is. And it's so cool because I see

Nick Bertram: that. Because my brother would say that. I love you. No way. I don't text my brother I love.

Adam Gragg: I do say it. It's some, not, not a lot, but I will on occasion. I think it's a good thing to do. It is a great thing to do. I do it with my daughter.

I mean, not a lot. And I do with my dad. I tell him, but I don't text it to my dad. I do love him.

Nick Bertram: Yeah. You know, I don't love everything

Adam Gragg: about these people, but I love. I know, I'm just kidding. I do love them. So, no, that is so cool and so inspiring. So that shows you relationship help just in wrapping it up.

I mean, you build new [00:49:00] connections and the benefits are amazing because it will make you resilient, your mental health, depression, anxiety. I mean, like, just you can navigate through things. It's going to give you a new, healthier perspective, which really leads to you reaching your goals. You're seeing that you have potential to go further in your life and gets you excited.

Like, I love seeing the excitement relationally. Thank you. You know, you get comes out and I have that at times and I, you know, it's, it, but it's so cool to see that and then know like the best is ahead. Like that's so cool. Exactly. Like, so you'll never get old. There's a future. That's it. There's a future in that, man.

And you know my thing, you're never going to get old if it's old in attitude, man. If you're long as you're growing and challenge yourself, you're never gonna, you know, and you got, you're healthy and you're blessed in so many ways too. And I am too. I want to remind you in, if you found this podcast helpful, hit the link to Shatterproof Yourself.

You can purchase the course. These are seven small, seven big steps to a giant leap in your mental health. Hit the link there and also check out the last episode as well, which I give you some more information [00:50:00] on making new friends. So Nick, if somebody wanted to like email you or had questions for you, how could they reach you?

Are you okay with that? Yeah, actually, you know what, I'll put it in the show notes.

Think that Perfect. Yeah, that'd be fine. Yeah. Put in the show notes. You'll find that you can contact Nick through that. Yep. If you wanna talk, that'd be great. So, got some questions for Nick. He'll answer those questions. So remember, insight. is 20 percent of change. You gain insight, information. And then, 80 percent of change is action. So Nick, by saying, hey, I want to build a better relationship with the pastor, he took an action to go ahead and do it. He had the inspiration enough to share it with people that he wanted to do it. But the fact that he shared it, accountability, he took an action. You're 100 times more likely to reach your goals.

If you share it with somebody, a plan that you act on is a hundred times better as far as getting results than a plan you do nothing with, obviously. So it doesn't have to be perfect. Perfection paralysis. Not perfect, you take action. So what resonated with you most from what Nick shared [00:51:00] today, so by the end of the day, Apply it.

Take some kind of an action. Do something with it and then share it with somebody else, a friend. That would be great because that'll make it really stick. And if you teach it to somebody else, it'll help it stick as well. So I want to sign off today the way that I always do. Making your mission to live the life now that you want to be remembered for 10 years after you're gone.

You decide your legacy, no one else. I appreciate you greatly and I will talk to you soon. Next time.