Welcome to the Decide Your Legacy podcast, helping

individuals and businesses unleash their potential.

Join us every episode as host Adam Bragg

discusses what is holding us back and how

to find hope for moving forward.

Along the way, we discuss developing healthy relationships

and navigating life transitions while overcoming fear, stress,

and anxiety.

Live the life you want, the legacy you

decide.

So, have you ever noticed that the hardest

conversations in a family business and in a

family, they aren't about the surface level issues,

they're actually much deeper and that's why people

avoid them.

They're about jealousy and trust and who's going

to run the business, who is their favoritism.

Those are the hard things that people avoid.

No one says it out loud, but it

shows up in business meetings, in the boardroom,

it shows up in decisions not getting made,

it shows up at Thanksgiving dinner, shows up

at Christmas.

What's unspoken at the dinner table shows up

elsewhere in sometimes really unhealthy ways.

A family business can outlive the founder or

it can actually split the family.

And the difference is usually decided long before

the transition ever occurs, years before.

Today, we're going to talk about passing the

business down without breaking the family.

Three decisions that every family business must make

and hopefully you're going to see that some

of these are practical.

Not comfortable, but they're practical.

And you can talk about them with somebody

and they're going to understand, even your six

-year-old child.

They can be something that makes sense.

So welcome to the Decide Your Legacy podcast.

I'm your host, Adam Gragg.

I'm a coach and a family therapist and

I founded Decide Your Legacy in 2012.

Our passion is connecting people, helping them talk

about the real core issues.

Courageously, connection builds legacy and legacy is now

how we live now.

In fact, it's the foundation.

Connection is the foundation of legacy.

It happens through courageous conversations.

Joining me today is a special guest, Clem

Ost.

And I wanted to have Clem on the

podcast because I have known him for approximately

roughly 20 years, known of him and seen

him interact in the community with businesses.

He has a unique perspective and he's a

good communicator.

He has some really valuable stuff to share.

And he shared with me probably a month

ago, maybe less, but an article called the

Enterprising Family Tree.

And it describes the family business like a

tree, which I think is very relevant.

Three aspects of the tree.

The family is the roots.

Under the surface, ownership is the trunk and

the business is the canopy.

The business is the canopy.

I loved how simple it was.

You can grasp it and look at it.

So Clem, will you share some things about

yourself personally and professionally so the audience can

get to know you better today?

Okay.

Thank you.

And I appreciate the opportunity to come together

and kind of explore this together because I

know you've done wonderful work in this field.

And so thank you very much.

Thanks for being here.

I'll give you a little background.

I came from a farm family and it

was a large farm family.

There were 10 of us boys and four

girls.

And so it was, you talk about family,

it was a big family, but it was,

it was really blessed at an early age

in terms of being able to connect with

all my siblings.

And we grew up and played together, fought

together, whatever.

Where did you fall in the birth order?

I was the fifth oldest.

I had two older brothers and two older

sisters.

And so I was really kind of the

head of the next group.

There was myself and then my younger siblings

that there were three, three of them in

particular that followed me.

And then they're kind of a slight.

With 13 siblings, did you ever forget their

names?

No, no, you didn't forget their names.

I mean, you might not call them the

best names, but exactly, exactly.

But it was, you know, as I reflect

back on my experience in life it was

a wonderful and still is a wonderful experience

because we get together every two years and

there's many, many cousins and usually there's 250

to 300 people that gather for family gathering

every two years.

Oh wow.

One in Missouri and one in Kansas because

of relocation of some of my siblings to

Missouri.

But give you a little background.

I grew up on the farm and I

always knew in my heart that that's not

what I wanted to do.

And so in the early years I noticed

that people that were really driving nice cars

and dressed up would come into our yard

and it turned out to be insurance salesmen.

And so I told myself that's how I,

that's my path to leaving the farm.

So as in my early teens, before I

had, right after I graduated from grade school,

large Catholic family and 10 of the boys,

my mother and dad always thought that there's

got to be a priest in these 10

boys somewhere.

And so I even, following graduating from high

school, spent about two weeks at a seminary

in Missouri and decided that's not the path

I was going to go on.

And then our church burned down.

My freshman year of high school, I went

to the public school in Conway.

The church burned down and some of the

priests, they had just opened that year.

The all boys Jesuit school at Woodlawn and

Central called Chaplain Capon High School.

And the priests were coming out to help

the pastor and apparently approached my parents about

is there somebody in the parish that could

come and live at the school?

And the next thing I know, my father

and mother, my dad, he drove to Wichita

on the east side of town.

I had a little cardboard suitcase and I'm

walking up the walk and not showing where

to go.

They were in their second year and so

they were all coming in from the feeder

schools and dressed in their uniforms as was

kind of common.

And finally, they took me to where I

was going to live and one of the

priests and it was a dressing room off

the gymnasium stage.

So I moved into that dressing room and

that's where I lived for three years.

I'd have to move out whenever there was

a play.

So it was a life changing event and

very traumatic in the early months.

But it also enabled me to go on

through high school.

I went to a four year private school

in that city where I met my wife

and then I pursued getting into the insurance

business because I felt that was my avenue.

Ultimately, I did get in the insurance business,

did that for 10 years.

But during those 10 years, my primary clients

were family owned businesses.

I was attracted to the dairymen and the

community entrepreneurs and that sort of thing.

So that was a path that just connected

for me.

And then in the late 70s, a mentor

of mine encouraged me to identify the most

successful people I know and just call on

them and ask them the key to success.

And I happened to call on Frank Carney.

And fortunately, his person that was kind of

shepherding him was not at the front desk

and he was in the office and he

waved me in and we developed a relationship.

So he was a tremendous mentor and coach

because I got involved in strategic planning when

it was just emerging.

It came out of the financial planning field,

but I was intrigued by the planning process.

And for the audience, Frank Carney is one

of the co-founders of Pizza Hut.

Yes, he was one of the brothers.

Which was started in Wichita where we're speaking

today.

Okay.

So that gives you a little background of

my entry into it and then I've watched

the field emerge.

I've been involved with it since 1977 is

when I got out of the insurance business,

went strictly to a fee-based advisory firm.

For family businesses.

For family businesses.

That field really developed in the 80s through

an organization called Family Firm Institute.

And so I got very involved in it

and watched the field really emerge tremendously where

today there's unlimited opportunities to reimagine the focus

in terms of shifting from the concept of

a family business to an enterprising family.

And so, Clem, what are some of the

biggest misconceptions you see families having about passing

down the business?

I think the biggest succession is thinking of

it as succession.

In other words, somebody succeeding them versus a

generation coming in to be able to redefine

and reimagine and reinvent together with the elder

generation what it could become.

And so transitioning and transformation become very important.

That it needs to transition and transform into

something different in order to be current.

And so we get trapped in the fact

that it's got to be duplicated from one

generation to the next when in fact that's

not sustainable.

Not in today's world.

It's reinvented.

Yes.

Okay.

And the other big thing is the shift

from the concept of focusing on the family

enterprise, which focuses on the business, is now

really focusing on the enterprising family of which

the glue is the family, not the business.

Okay.

The family is the key, you might say,

container that holds the business together.

And that's a misconception.

I think one of the misconceptions too is

that we don't have to proactively talk about

the future and we don't have to actually...

So there's an avoidance.

We'll get to it some other time.

I would agree totally, Adam.

I mean, you have to imagine the world

and the company and the organization, the family,

what you want it to be, what you

feel it was really created by a higher

power and by God with a special mission

and a special purpose.

That's a great way of describing it because

I look at business as being such an

amazing growth opportunity to reveal blind spots and

things in yourself that you can work on.

Yes.

We grow through it.

Yes.

So why the tree?

What does that picture help families see that

a chart or a plan doesn't?

There's a lot of discussion today in emergence

of a living organization.

There's a number of people that have written

about the living company.

Ajias, a fellow that came out of Shell

Company, the living company.

And then also today, it's even more emphasized

in terms of the recognition that it's a

dynamic living system.

And it is because of the relationships, because

of the dynamics that go on in the

family, which can be a very powerful trigger

for helping to solve problems if we recognize

and are willing to be open to the

fact that differences involved in the family and

crisis that appear or tensions that appear are

positive if we work them through, if we

talk them through.

They create new ideas, new thoughts and new

energy, but we have to be open with

an open heart and open mind and open

soul to recognize that.

That's amazing.

And also to me, the tree, most of

the roots are underground.

Yes.

Yet we only see, what we see external

isn't really what is the foundation of the

tree.

It's the roots underground, the family.

And that's why I love that illustration there.

And you can think of even some trees,

I don't know for sure, but the majority

of the tree is underground with the roots

like that.

The root system is so massive and it's

so stabilizing for that tree that if we

get that right, it makes everything better.

And that tree seed in many occasions has

been planted generations before.

There you go.

And one of the favorite little poems by

William Stafford, which is The Way It Is,

talks about the thing that never changes.

And it is a brief little poem that

really resonates.

And if you're familiar with Jim Collins and

Porus, he alludes to that, that it's critical

to define that.

It's critical to define the intent and the

purpose and why we exist as a family,

why we exist as an individual.

And our great task is to discover what

that is.

And to get them to talk about it

and clarify it.

The history is so powerful.

Can you think of a very sentimental gift

that you've been given at some point, Clem,

that you treasure?

Like what one of the most treasured gifts

is that you have?

You know, I went through a process called

the strategic coach, which you're very familiar with

because I know you're involved in it.

Dan Sullivan, yes.

And the unique ability exercise was one that

I went through and took about 15 to

20 family members, clients, advisors, people that knew

me, and just really peeled that back.

And one of the things that kept emerging

was my ability to really sense things and

see things that aren't visible to them.

And here, listening to what they're thinking, not

what they're saying.

Because oftentimes, you can see those patterns when

we go into the relationship.

So it's really that self-discovery, helping them

discover their unique gifts, their unique talents, and

beginning to see that through dialogue and through

feedback and through conversations, many people, by just

asking them, what do you feel that I

am really good at?

Oh, that's such a great question.

And that allows you to begin to notice

the patterns and the trends that keep reoccurring.

So that's been a gift from other people

to you to help you clarify.

I have always found that I can't see

myself as clearly often without feedback from other

people, from a community, from my family, from

people seeing and pointing out to me that

you're good at that, or why are you

insecure there, Adam?

You really shouldn't be.

And it's sunk in for the first time

in those interactions.

Can you think of a tangible gift that

you've gotten that you'd say, like, I really

treasure this sentimentally?

I mean, for me, I can share one,

as you think about that, because I'm putting

you on the spot.

I have my grandfather's watch that my aunt

gave to me.

And he came over from when he was

nine from London, from England.

And he worked for the Southern Pacific Railroad

his whole career, except when he was in

the Navy during World War II.

And so he got this watch when he

retired.

It's a gold watch.

My aunt gave it to me, though.

And the reason it's so sentimental is because

of the history, because of the roots, because

of what he meant to me.

He died when I was 15.

But he was such an influence on my

life, even in those 15 years, that I

will get emotional thinking about him in hard

times because I had this sense of unconditional

love from him.

So it represents so much more.

What's for you, Clem, a tangible gift that

you've received?

Well, a couple of them.

One is the little community of Oost, Kansas,

O-S-T, by the Cheney Reservoir.

That's where my father grew up, and right

across the road from the Catholic Church there.

And it's today a very flourishing little community.

But I can remember my great-grandfather, who

helped found that community.

We used to, as children, run over to

his general store, and for a dime you

could get some candy or whatever the case,

or nickel, penny, really.

And so, Oost, Kansas, has really always been

a special gift.

I go back there every year and really

reconnect with my grandparents in the cemetery, and

my grandparents as well.

The other thing that connects to me is,

I have kind of a book that has

a family tree with all, still creating little

birds that we, every time one of my,

one of us had a child, there's a

little bird that goes on the canopy of

the tree.

And my mother had 67 grandchildren, and then

out of that came many, many great-grandchildren,

and now it's great-great-great-grandchildren, and

so forth.

So, it's a really, really valuable reminder of

how my parents kept us together, and even

when the transfish in the farm, we went

through the exercise of talking about it and

trying to understand where everybody's passions or interests

were at, that reached agreement after my father

died, and then after my mother died, that

it was a legacy that just really was

one I never really thought about, because I

started that process when I was in the

insurance business, encouraging my parents to do that.

And so, it's lived on.

To make that tree, you encourage them to.

So, why should business leaders pay attention to

this episode, even if they don't currently own

a family business?

I think the key is that family businesses

need the support of others.

It's not just about the family business.

They can't succeed without others.

So, if you're in a profession or you're

a member of a community and so forth,

to support them, to realize that they're generating

such positive opportunities for jobs and opportunities with

reference to perpetuating the faith, or whatever that

case might be, of recognizing that those tight

communities of your own families are the communities

you want your children or grandchildren to grow

up in.

And so, I think professionals really have a

tremendous opportunity of helping others become the best

they can be.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, for me as a family

therapist, I look at the way business teams

function, having a lot of similarities to a

family.

And they are family, but they may have

non-family executives.

And people bring in, you know, just being

a middle child or just feeling some exclusion

from their parents growing up.

They could bring that into a team.

And knowing that things work as a system

is valuable for anybody in making those connections.

So, yeah, there's, I'd recommend a book called

Business as a Calling by, author is Michael

Nova.

And Michael Nova was a very good, connected

with St. John Paul II, as well as

he's written many books.

But he talks about the fact that the

way out of poverty is through being an

entrepreneur.

Oftentimes, and I often find that, that many

entrepreneurs oftentimes have not gone on to get

a PhD.

They maybe dropped out of school or they

pursued their dream or they pursued an idea.

And so, there's a, in our free enterprise

system, it's critical that we have these healthy

families and these healthy businesses that provide the

opportunities to others who help create the success

within the business.

And that there be that unspoken connection that

we can't do this without each other.

We can't do it without each other.

And so much of our economy is driven

by family business.

People don't realize that oftentimes.

And people don't realize how many people do

actually work with family.

Yeah.

And some of these leaders out there may

have a family business or maybe growing into

a family business.

That's right.

So, before we get into the three decisions,

one last question here.

What's the difference, Clem, between a healthy handoff

and an unhealthy one?

A healthy handoff works when you're open and

willing to embrace the differences and the conflict,

to name it, to make it without, without

fear, without judgment, without just that a person

feels safe that they can say what they're

thinking.

And the recipient, out of curiosity and wonder,

can try to get clarity on what that

means.

So, a healthy conversation back and forth is

not jumping to conclusions, but jump to, what

did you mean by that?

Yeah.

You know, did I understand what you just

said?

And so, we need to be able to

not quickly react.

I've been through that situation oftentimes where I

was giving my, I had the answer before

they even finished talking.

And it's a natural tendency for all of

us as emotional human beings to react to.

And these are highly emotional interactions with family.

And they can have 40, 50 years of

history.

And I have found that the unhealthy handoffs,

they don't talk about this stuff.

And they react and run rather than engage.

And these are multiple conversations over a period

of time, often years of time, where they're

making progress because there is some openness and

there's more trust being built.

But they're painful.

Both Clem and I know what it's like

to have clients that want to fire us

after they get started in the process.

So, there's people that, because it's uncomfortable, but

they don't often see the progress.

We try to help them see it.

But sometimes there's resistance as we get engaged

in these conversations.

Well, you bring up a very good point,

Adam, because patience is critical.

Being able to let things emerge.

Oftentimes, we have to have an answer.

We want to fix it.

But actually, when you get into those conversations,

there are differences and there's tension.

There's something better coming out of it if

you hold that space, hold that canine.

And the beautiful part about a family, enterprise

or an enterprising family, it's a tight container.

Nobody abandons their family.

You're always family.

They can estrange themselves.

They can distance themselves.

But you always go back to those roots.

And many of the things that were passed

on to you were passed on to the

previous generation.

And, you know, it's amazing how much of

our own health is connected to our family.

Even how much if someone has anxiety issues

or depression issues, and then resolving things within

their family can make a big impact.

So, what's the first decision here?

What's the first decision right now when it

comes to this topic, Clem?

Commitment.

The first decision is that you're committed to

the family.

You're committed to helping it become the best

that it can be.

And finding ways and finding resources and finding

information because it's out there.

I've seen the field emerge.

It's all out there.

But we have great individual growth and it

starts with the individual.

You have to become the change that you're

wanting.

And that means individual self-awareness and self

-determination that you can make a difference.

And so, it doesn't require all the family

members.

It just takes one person to change the

system to a very positive movement.

So, what you're saying, commitment to the roots.

Yes.

Commitment to the roots.

So, the values, the faith, the traditions, the

stories that makes...

And those are the deep roots.

Those are the things that never really change.

It's extremely valuable to understand where you came

from and what are those things that you

want to pass on to future generations because

they're so true and good and beautiful in

most cases.

Healthy roots are paramount for a healthy tree.

So, unresolved conflict, unspoken expectations.

They rot the roots.

They're out of sight, but they rot.

And oftentimes, families find themselves not even being

able to be in the same room with

each other.

And that takes courage to be able to

say, this isn't what was intended.

And what is it that each of us...

You might ask the question, why do I

exist?

And why does this family exist?

What is it that's special for us to

give back to others?

And that takes time and courage.

And it's not something that happens overnight.

But the impact of it, beginning it, will

make significant difference to be authentic and willing

to stay connected and embrace the struggle, embrace

the pain that we all go through.

It's not isolated.

All families have something traumatic that has occurred

in their life.

Right.

You know, and I can think of examples

where siblings may not talk to each other.

And there's rivalry that goes way back.

And there's leadership decisions that aren't made.

And there's even spousal conflict related to this.

And it comes out in passive-aggressive board

meetings because maybe they still work together or

slow decisions.

It costs the company.

It impacts the value of the company.

And then facilitating those conversations and working through

the conflict helps them recover.

And I can think of a lot of

examples.

So what does that actually look like week

to week for a family to commit and

to tend to the roots?

You need to identify those family leaders that

see the importance of the whole system, that

they want to find ways to learn and

grow and begin to have those conversations.

It's my opinion and the opinion of the

people that have worked in this field, you

can't do it without outside help.

That third party facilitator is a must to

get it because you can't facilitate your own

dynamics without triggering things that maybe wasn't intended

where somebody else couldn't.

A third party can help think that through

deeper and realize that the intent helps stabilize

the conversation.

And then how the receiver.

Yeah.

Because they show that, Hey, this wasn't intended

to offend you or, and they give them,

they shine a light on what the truth

is in the interaction.

Very valuable.

So what do you say to somebody who

has, they want to engage in tending the

roots, but a lot of the part of

the family does not want to engage in

this process?

I would say that the elder who are,

have the influence in the business are the

ones that have to support the idea and

be committed to it.

The elder generation has a critical role to

play, even if they're.

Even if they're not in the business anymore.

Yes.

Okay.

Like they've given the business to the second

generation or whatever.

Let's go back to what I said earlier.

It's not about the business that we're talking

about.

It's about the family and it's about the

enterprising family that has room for everybody, even

those not being in the business.

They have something to contribute, even if they're

pursuing other careers.

Oftentimes in this concept of the enterprising family

is there's, they have ideas that they want

to pursue on their own with their spouse

and so forth.

How do we support that?

How does that core family business provide them

with the opportunities to.

To do that.

Maybe they want to, maybe somebody wants to

become a dentist and they're really passionate about

it and if the business would support them

with that.

Yes.

Because you'd hate to see them have a

passion for dentistry and not go pursue it.

Right.

Well, and they have something to contribute from

their own experience of serving others or helping

others.

And oftentimes you'll find that when you have

a family gathering or family counselor, really those

structures become important that help you come together.

Maybe it's once a year, maybe it's once

every six months.

It's important to look at the knowledge and

talents that live within the family, but not

necessarily in the business.

In the business.

That's a family conversation.

So what are the conversations families avoid most

when it comes to who takes over?

Well, they avoid thinking in terms of who's

the most qualified and what kind of qualifications

are required to take us into the future.

Oftentimes it's not a family member.

Oftentimes they maybe have not had those experiences

outside, but they can learn that.

And that's why it's strongly encouraged that family

members go work someone else for a period

of five years or so to get that

inside experience plus confidence that they know they

can, they, they earned it.

And so, but the tradition has been moving

it within the family, but it puts it

at great risk.

Stewardship is more, most critical to think in

terms of who are the best custodians or

stewards to keep this alive.

And, and it could be a non-family

member oftentimes can be, or even somebody that

married into the family oftentimes can be that

person.

And if, if that's developed internally, that's been

a very favorable environment.

If it's a family member themselves that have

maybe ran a division or proved that they

can build a team and that sort of

thing.

So, so stewardship, I'd like to think of

much more than ownership.

We don't really own anything.

I mean, if you have a few key

people go or, you know, because of the

toxicity or whatever that might be going on,

it can have a major impact on the

business itself.

Yeah.

And so how do we- You don't

really own the business.

It's God's business.

It's like, it's like tithing, you know, you

tithing releases the power of money over your

life.

If, if, if it's, it's hard thing to

do, but it releases the same thing with

the business and it gets them thinking about,

well, we may not have the right people

yet in the family.

And we're going to go and find the

right people for the stewardship of the business.

And what if they've already put people in

positions where they're not really ready?

Well, that, that has to start at the

family level of talking about our commitment to

see this continue from generation to generation.

And in many cases, if you've established some

outside counsel or advisors and so forth to

talk that through, but recognize that we, we

know that we need someone that can take

this forward.

People that are there, we have to understand

what their aspirations and wishes are.

And it becomes a nurturing developmental issue.

Is it someone that is committed to growing

and learning?

And you have to provide that support and

that opportunity for them to grow and develop

and nurture.

It's, it's nurturing the human resource, not commanding

it or telling it what it needs to

do.

Nobody changes because somebody tells you to change.

Yeah.

We change because of our own self-discovery

and, and, and knowing that somebody really cares

for me to be the best I can

be.

Yeah.

I know that's in that just knowing that

they're, they're not forcing a person to do

a leadership role who isn't ready as well.

And I've seen that happen.

And then there's no conversation about it and

pointing out like they've, they've shown really that

their behavior means that they're really not ready.

Maybe they can't regulate themselves emotionally.

You know, and leaders, leaders are, there's certain

qualities that you're going to have that show

that you're ready for this.

So when does the next generation need a

voice and what happens when they don't get

one?

They need a voice as soon as you

can give it to them.

I know families that have family gatherings and

a 10 year old or 12 year olds

voices in the room.

And oftentimes you're shocked at what they pick

up and say and do.

How much insight they have.

And so, and nurturing that can make it

much more attractive to them if they want

to come back someday or knowing that, that

family system is a very vibrant and very

healthy environment.

And so families have unlimited opportunities in my

opinion today, if they do their work and

realize how living systems and nurturing and, and

the living tree concept by, by cultivating it,

by pulling the weeds, by making sure that

it's not infested or toxic can have such

positive results.

So what happens when part of the family

doesn't have a voice?

Well, I think that if they don't have

a voice, then you're probably going to see

it in a strain.

It's going to be, it's going to be

toxic.

People want their voices heard.

They don't necessarily think that you should follow

what they say.

They just want to know that they have

the opportunity to, and you're asking them that

your voice is important.

And you're listening and trying to understand.

That's right.

Because I've found many times that that's all

they're asking for.

And they honor and respect that and are

explaining that, you know, the people in charge

are taking that information.

They've considered it and, and respect and honor

and appreciate they're willing to participate.

So how do you tell the difference between

a family wound and a business disagreement?

So like the difference between a business disagreement

and a family wound wearing a business suit,

how did you tell the difference?

Well, I would say the family wound is

highly emotional.

And it's the business wound, just logically, you

can probably talk it through if it's without

the human emotions.

But the family wound is not uncommon at

all.

And, and avoiding it is not going to

solve it.

It's going to just fester and grow.

And it's going to put the whole organization

at risk.

Because that's what is toxic underneath the soil.

And it looks and appears oftentimes that a

business from the outside is doing well.

But if it's not addressing that, it'll collapse

at some point.

Isn't that so true?

And then you're surprised when you see what's

going on.

This business is sold and it's devalued and

everyone's wondering, well, what really happened?

But it was all under the soil.

I see when it's really a personal family

issue, you see little tiny things becoming huge

things.

And this resistance to decisions and you're wondering

what's really going on there.

And an outsider that's not in the family

can usually spot it and say, well, if

what, this is something else that we should

probably discuss here.

What's really, you go rise above that interaction

and point out and say, what's really behind

that?

How is that connected to the past and

getting them to engage in it?

Because if they do, they can have real

breakthroughs.

So, what's a simple first step that a

family can take when it comes to commitment?

Engage in dialogue.

Engage in dialogue.

Yeah.

I mean, communicate.

So, what does that look like?

Bring together and share the intent and the

purpose of what we're wanting to do.

And think through, think through, do we want

this legacy to continue in future generations?

And are we willing to do whatever it

takes to make that happen?

With God's help and faith, there's no way

that it won't happen in the sense of

helping because it takes courage and it takes

risk and it takes faith.

And so, having dialogue and clearly saying that

we can, we want to talk about the

future of the business.

And I've found that if somebody has been

running a business without the dialogue and maybe

they made some mistakes as they listened to

this episode and they think, well, I've already

made some of these decisions that I'm hearing

about and I want to, I don't know

what I can do.

I think apologizing and saying, you know, there's

some ways that I missed the mark and

I want to start having this dialogue now

and listen to all the different parts of

the family and take the steps.

I think when I was a kid, we

had family meetings usually on Sundays and I

look back and think those were some of

the best times because it was my dad

was passionate about us having these family meetings.

And I think we talked about some things

and they were later.

It was really probably when I was 10

or older, but we could bring whatever we

wanted to the table and it was helpful

and really positive right now, even as I

think about it right now.

So, that is such a big deal to

start the dialogue.

And who's involved in those discussions, Clem?

Well, I think the person that's most committed

and interested to see it work.

Okay.

You know, I think it can start from

a non-employed family member that sees the

family and wants those conversations to happen.

Might be the younger generation.

Ideally, the elder generation who has typically the

respect and the power and the influence, sees

the opportunity to really step into that.

And it's timely.

We need the wisdom of the elders.

Yes.

The rising generation is not going to succeed

without repeating all the errors that they're going

to go through if they don't listen to

the elders.

And the elders are not going to succeed

unless they nurture and develop the rising generation

and mentor and coach them.

There's got to be an integration of those

generations.

And you just need one or two from

each generation that really want to take that

step, that have an influence.

Even if they don't work in the business

currently.

Yes.

They can come back and start now.

And ideally, oftentimes, because you can get into

such things as family champion, family councils, and

so forth, there's a governance system that needs

to reflect the voice of the family.

That voice is critically heard.

Years ago, the focus was on the building

that business and making it strong and getting

rid of the interference of the family because

they're messing it up.

When in reality, it's the unraveling of the

family guarantees eventually the unraveling of the business.

If you build a stronger family, you'll build

a stronger business.

So let's talk about the second decision.

What is that that these family business owners

can make?

The second decision is really the stewardship concept

that we don't own this.

We need to serve a higher purpose and

ask for that help and that guidance for

us to be able to come together and

really be able to recognize that this is

God's work.

He put us in this position for a

reason.

There's an old saying that I think about

it often because my wife reminded me of

it.

God doesn't call the qualified.

He qualifies those he's called.

And I've often, my wife would say, you're

no more qualified to do this work than

anybody.

You haven't grown up in the environment.

But I realized that my deep desire and

recognition of the unique gifts and talents God

had given me just aligned to what the

work I am doing today.

And the fact that all those ups and

downs and struggles are duplicated by every family.

There is no such thing as a perfect

family.

No matter how we try to glaze it

over or think we'll be embarrassed if any

of this gets out.

Oh, yeah.

There's a community of families.

Yeah.

And that has been a struggle personally, just

to accept my own, my challenges.

And in my family, we've had addiction.

And I've gone through a divorce and they're

not perfect.

I don't wish those things had happened, but

we have this messiness to families, which we

can actually look at and say, how can

this actually be used as an asset that

we've gone through these things?

It's hard to understand, but I know it's

true.

Well, you know, you bring up a great

point because for years, I was reluctant in

the mid 80s when the economic times were

pretty tough.

I declared bankruptcy and I was embarrassed by

that.

People would tell me, well, how can you

help other companies when you can't help yourself?

Having gone through that?

Yeah, yeah.

But what come out of that, it was

my PhD.

I realized, and I can sense and see

the mindset because I had it myself.

It was my, I didn't listen to what

the voice was telling me.

And as I look back on it, it

was suggested by the attorney and my accountant.

It was, it was nothing compared to it.

Yeah.

Because it was, it was.

That's, there's a lot of like Dan Sullivan

and Dave Ramsey.

You heard his story when he declared bankruptcy

and he started this massive business.

And what I found, my group, my most

successful clients had all gone through it.

Wow.

In one form or another.

Some of them didn't necessarily declare, but they

were there.

And so I think the beautiful part of

it about failure is the embracing the failure

because that's the opportunity we can really learn.

To help people.

To help people and serve people.

Because that's the path and pattern of life.

It is.

Yeah, it's painful.

Embrace the pain.

And so this stewardship part, we're talking the

ownership.

It carries what the family wants up.

That ownership carries what the family wants up

to the business and what the business needs

back down to the family.

So governance is the bark that protects it.

Who owns what?

Who decides what and how?

And that article that we're going to actually

have in the show notes on the enterprising

family describes a real estate family.

They passed ownership to the second generation, but

there was no shareholder agreement.

And decisions got fragmented and they slowed down.

And then they lost a prime property to

a faster competitor.

Yet they fixed it with a clear decision

map.

And an advisory board and a shareholder agreement.

So why is this attitude of, we'll figure

it out when the time comes, so dangerous,

Clem?

Because it's too late.

In our world today, we don't have the

privilege of a time with AI, artificial intelligence,

information moving so rapidly and so forth.

Whereas years ago, you could say, we can

recover in the next five years or 10

years.

Today, you have to be out ahead of

it.

You have to be able to address these

issues when you don't need to.

And that's why the time is now.

Because things can rapidly unravel.

And the elephants in the room, it's not

being talked about.

I always find that when the elephant is

brought out, everybody knows it's there.

The tension starts to decrease over the next

couple of months.

And people's misconceptions, if they don't talk about

it, can just grow.

They feed their fears.

And I think, even for me, I mean,

there's times I think these crazy thoughts about,

just because I'm a middle child and I

felt excluded at times.

And even when holidays are planned at my

brother's house, I can have this attitude of,

they're doing that intentionally.

And I don't believe it necessarily is.

But if I don't talk about it, which

I've learned to do and say, hey, you

know, I'd like, or this is what's on

my mind.

Is this accurate?

So, owning a business, working in the business,

and leading the business are three different things.

How do you help families separate them?

They're one system.

Go back to, it's one system.

What do you stand for?

Why do you exist?

What's your purpose?

And how are you serving others?

Because that taproot, those virtues, those principles that

you stand for, permeate the whole tree.

So, historically, they put them in separate silos.

Today, it's one system.

It's the tree.

The key is to get the system healthy.

And it starts with the couple, the roots,

the principles within the organization.

And it will permeate within the business because

it provides the very nature of what we

stand for and why we exist that goes

into how you treat your customers and care

about your customers and your fellow workers.

And so, that's why I go back.

If you read any of the living organizations

work by Norman Wolfe and his wife, Jane,

it goes in-depth on how systems work.

And now, you go through that process and

it really can be overwhelming to understand how

natural living systems.

But everybody's living it every day.

It's not something that we're not doing.

It's just creating awareness.

Okay.

It's recreating consciousness.

Just like this conversation, there'll be a number

of people that aren't ready to go through

that process.

But there'll be some that feel like we've

got to do something.

I find that some people are interested in

getting things clarified.

Some people are resistant.

So, what should be decided and written down

before the founder steps back?

I would say the founder transcends to another

level.

The founder has something to give back through

the stories he can share with the rising

generation, with the grandchildren, and the history and

the legacy that gets passed on.

And so, when we take out the elders

within the generation, I've said this before, and

there's an old adage, when an elder dies,

but an African proverb, a library burns down.

And the same is true in the family.

But when the elders die and we didn't

have a chance to really know what they

thought or what their story was, what were

some of the things that we wished we

would have asked them.

It's a huge loss.

Yes, it is.

So, I go back to what I was

saying.

I've seen the convergence of the silos and

even this article referred to about the living

tree.

It's converged into one system where it's the

family.

You take care and strengthen and develop the

family system.

It will permeate how the business gets run

through the governance and through the expectations that

the board has.

Are we living up to the purpose that

the families identify of why they exist and

what they're trying to do?

Those questions need to be asked and answered.

What are the owner's dreams and hopes?

And so, sometimes I see where the owner

will pass it to the second generation and

they don't want to work as much in

the business.

Like even saying that, well, I don't want

to go to the office anymore because that

undermines their performance or I'll feel pressure to

step in and do what I did before

when I was the president or the CEO.

What do you say to that?

I'd say they're right.

They're right, okay.

Yeah, I'd say it's not about working in

the business.

It's about cultivating the system, supporting the system,

being available to the grandchildren, great-grandchildren, the

tribe, whatever it might be, sharing their stories

to the employees.

And people love to hear the stories.

Meeting with them.

Yeah, meeting with them.

Having lunch and coffee and then I've also

seen it where the spouse survives the founder

and they feel unqualified to be that person

because they didn't work in the day-to

-day but they now are the person involved

because their spouse, who was the founder, died.

And they're insecure about it, conveying that information.

What would you say to them?

Well, I would say come back to the

family and share with them what you know,

the spouse that passed away and what those

principles, if they were the founding spouse because

they're very much a part of that success.

They're more than they know.

Yeah, much more than they know.

Build good governance systems and structures.

But that's based on what they've experienced and

lived.

They share that and it begins to plant

the seeds in other people's minds and hearts.

And not think of it in terms of,

I got this load to carry.

You've got the whole family to help you

carry it as well as the...

Because I've seen them in interactions where you

ask them questions and they know a lot

more than they realize.

And they have this history because they were

living it without even knowing it.

And they didn't even work in the business

potentially, but they did work in the business

a lot more than they thought, which is

pretty amazing.

Beautiful about the spousal relationship.

And I've often said this, the feminine characteristics

are powerful.

They have a sensing and an intuition that

oftentimes they've never worked in the business, but

they just know.

And I had that happen with my...

My first wife died about 11 years ago

and then I remarried and she passed away

earlier this year.

But what I discovered was with my first

wife, when I connected with Frank Carney, the

co-founder of Pizza Hut, I would come

home and I'd tell her, well, this is

what Frank told me.

She said, well, I've told you that several

times.

And I finally woke up and realized she

could sense and see things that I thought,

here's the guy that really lived it.

You have to honor and respect those, the

voices.

That's very insightful.

So how do you help?

What do you have to say with family

members who own part of the business, yet

they actually don't work in it?

They're stewards.

They have to care about the perpetuation of

the business as a steward.

But sometimes they will say like, I don't

know how it runs.

How can I contribute?

They're not operating the business.

They're guiding the direction and they're guardians of

the vision and the principles of what was

passed on to us.

That's a great question.

But it's, see, that's what, living systems are

much more dynamic than the traditional, you might

say, path that we've been taught in what's

called a mechanistic or machine model of logic

and everything else.

But when you know the intent and purpose,

you're a custodian of that to see that

it's passed on.

And just even with simple questions because they're

valued, not working in the business and observing

and supporting whoever is working in the business.

The ownership has, even if they don't work,

they still have a huge, massive role in

keeping the family healthy and having the conversations

and understanding the dynamics, understanding where everyone else

stands.

And them seeing that, because I've had challenges

with that at times, getting people to see

how important their role is.

Oh, yeah.

And convincing them of that.

But I mean, selling them on that.

So, what's the third decision, Clem, when it

comes to this?

And it's related to the tree here.

So, that business owners can do to pass

it down the right way.

They need to define the purpose and the

future vision.

The intent and the reason that this should

perpetuate for generations to come.

They have a...

It's the most critical at work that the

most difficult for people to do is to

be able to clarify something simple, but something

clear about why we exist.

Okay.

And that's not just a separate activity.

That's engaging family members in dialogue in terms

of...

Making that decision.

Making that decision.

A big part of that is really understand

where you came from.

That has a huge influence on us in

self-awareness and awareness of the legacy that

was passed on to us and honor that

legacy from our ancestors.

You know, it's in the article to the

canopy.

The canopy of the tree is the actual

business where people can see the visual, the

growth happen.

And it's the roots and the health of

the roots and then the health of the

trunk are paramount.

Termites, it references, are hidden problems that eat

away at it while it still may look

healthy, but they're eating away.

And there's five termites referenced, outdated processes, unhealthy

family dynamics, poor communication, low morale, high turnover,

a culture that resists change when the next

generation isn't involved yet.

They're resisting change.

So what are the termites that you see

most often in a family business, Clem?

Well, the very thing you just...

It's behind the scenes gossiping.

It's behind the scenes being critical.

It's behind the scenes of eroding the confidence

in that the family on the same page,

because people pick that up.

They know when there's sabotaging going on.

Even though they aren't in on those conversations.

So that's the beginning of the unraveling unless

that gets confronted and made visible.

And address those, like you said so well,

as the elephants in the room.

It's for everybody's benefit.

The people that may not like something going

on has a responsibility to share that and

be open to the fact that you're doing

it because you care about others, not because

you have your own interests.

Right, it's to help.

So they're identifying that there's comparison and jealousy

and resentment and saying, hey, might this be

something we should talk about?

And that's very common.

This is not about...

The families have to make their choices and

decisions, but they have to know there's a

way to work that through and not just

harbor it because eventually it will collapse.

It's a given that you destroy the root

system, the tree will collapse.

Eventually will collapse.

And how do you find the real source

of the problem instead of treating the symptoms?

You get into the commitment that we want

to go a different direction.

Somebody has to have the courage to stand

up and say, you know, this...

One person.

Yes, at least one.

Ideally, a couple, three, whatever it is, depends

on the size of the family.

But you want to have that core group

that is really a steward and who cares

about all the family members.

They're not isolating.

It's not about just addressing the needs of

one person.

It's about the canopy, the whole system of

health because it passes on to children and

grandchildren.

If that's a pattern, that's likely to repeat

itself in the next generation.

But if that pattern is broken, that's likely

to have great rewards for future generations.

And the thing that can happen is the

symptoms are very tempting to get consumed by.

Somebody may have an addiction or somebody may

always continually cause conflict.

And they look and say, well, this person

has a problem, rather than saying, what's underneath?

What's underneath that's not being talked about?

And being honest with that because that's going

to make the roots healthy.

And knowing how important that is because that's

the one takeaway that I would say, I

hope people get from listening to this is

if you don't tend to it and start

addressing it, that it may not happen in

the next year, it may not happen in

five years, but it's going to happen.

It's going to come out.

And you're seeing it now.

There are opportunities to recognize how it's coming

out now if you're willing to be honest

and see that there's something under the surface.

And maybe you as a leader are contributing

to that.

Maybe you are showing a lack of willingness

to listen and understand.

Maybe you are showing an inflexibility to the

next generation about what you want the business

to do now and not letting them to

be creative.

It's important stuff.

So how do employees who aren't family, so

we'll get into that a little bit.

They aren't family, but they're executives in the

business or even just employees of the business.

How do they feel the effects of family

tension?

Whether it's positive or negative energies that's being

transmitted inside.

And that's going to come.

The family's under the spotlight.

They are under the spotlight.

They're under the spotlight.

They know and sense if there's differences.

And that energy permeates all organization.

It doesn't go away.

It either is uplifted into a positive vein

or it's allowed to fester and continue to

get worse.

And so everybody has something to gain by

really caring about each other and loving the

work you're doing, loving the people you work

with, loving the family members and so forth.

And it requires us to overcome many of

the temptations we have to be human.

And how do we stand by the faith

and the hope and love that's so necessary

to sustain ourselves?

Yeah, it really takes people being honest with

themselves.

And I can think of, and you've probably

seen this before, family businesses who have people

in positions that they're really not mature enough

for and the owners not being willing to

say, I probably made a wrong move here.

And let's find a right position for this

person and help them get to the place

where they're emotionally, they have the leadership ability

to actually handle the situation, which- And

that's a role that I think a lot

of elders can play.

They've been through it.

They've seen it and so forth and not

separate themselves from the opportunities and the responsibilities

to mentor and coach and be able to

observe.

Because they know oftentimes that shouldn't be happening

or that's going to create some conflict, but

they don't want to overstep that bounds.

And that's not the case.

You're all responsible for the outcomes of what

happens with the system, no matter what age

no matter what role you play.

So how do you keep the business open

to change when the founder built it a

certain way?

You do that because you're guaranteed that if

you keep on the same path, it's not

going to survive unless it adapts and it's

flexible and it's viable to reimagine what is

the world today and what are the risks

that we- If they don't change.

If they don't change.

We don't have an option except to adapt

into a very agile, adaptive learning organization.

If you look at the histories of these

family businesses, they've had to adapt a lot.

They may have started multiple divisions and had

to change based on the marketplace.

They may have hired a lot of people

that weren't the right fit at times and

made changes with that.

And to know that and reflect on that

because it's going to be a lot of

learning and growth for that second generation.

I mean, I know I've heard you say

it's hardest to go from the first to

second generation, even that it's miraculous when it

happens.

Or you've referenced that before.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Well, yeah, that comes from a mentor of

mine by the name of James E.

Hughes, who's written, I don't know how many

books, but he once said that in order

for a first generation to transition to a

second generation or really a second to third,

it's an impossibility.

But when it happens, it's a miracle.

And that's how challenging, but it's also a

great opportunity because today things have progressed so

much that it's not about getting bigger and

bigger.

There's a fellow by the name of E

.F. Schumacher wrote the book, Small is Beautiful.

It's about being flexible, agile, nimble, and being

adjusting, being able to adjust in different parts

of the family and the organization.

And because you're serving a higher purpose.

Yeah, that makes sense.

So Clem, if you could challenge family business

leaders to do one thing to grow here,

what would it be?

Become much more familiar and more self-aware

of why God created you and what it

is that you believe he's calling you to

be and to do.

That you dream a dream so big that

only he can help you fulfill it.

And it's our own work.

It has to start with ourselves, the willingness

to step up and the willingness because you

love and care to be engaged and be

able to support the rising generation, being able

to support those that have been a part

of that legacy in a way that strengthens

the future generations for this to continue for

many years to come.

Yeah, be willing.

Yeah, that's, so in summary, just briefly, 10,

we have, this was not exactly how Clem

described it, but he, three decisions were in

summary, tend to the roots and strengthen the

trunk and hunt the termites.

That's how it's described in the article.

And that's a lot of work.

That's some real stepping back and focusing on

what matters most is what I, how I

would describe it.

So how can people get ahold of you,

Clem, if they want to learn more, how

can they connect with you?

They could reach me by phone.

Okay.

And 316-644-0688.

And I'd be happy to try to answer

any questions they might have.

Okay, yeah, very good.

So I want to close and encourage you

to connect with Clem and you know how

to reach me.

But I thought about, as I wrote this

podcast, you know, I thought about just how

even recently I've been triggered with my own

family.

And so I can, as I mentioned, get

jealous when my parents go and visit my

brother or have Thanksgiving with my brother and

not me.

And even this current upcoming Thanksgiving, it's going

to be in New Orleans.

And I've realized that I have not always

expressed my jealousy and I've not always expressed

this feeling of favoritism.

And I don't know how accurate it is,

honestly.

I do believe my parents love me and

they love us all.

So I shared it though with my mom

and dad, had a discussion about it.

And for some reason, the things, some of

that resentment, even though I'm 53 years old,

you know, dissipated because I talked to him

about it.

And it was not the most enjoyable conversation,

but for some reason I could accept it

better.

And it's amazing because a tree without healthy

roots can't stand the test of time and

neither can a family business.

The legacy isn't the business you hand down.

It's the family that's still standing when you

do.

Right there.

And so I want to challenge you in

the audience today.

What insight did you gain from listening to

Clem and hearing about this valuable, extremely valuable

content on passing down a family business?

What did you gain?

Because there's no positive change unless you take

some kind of an action.

Insight, if you're going to make a change

in your life and your business, insight is

about 20% of change, I find.

You can gain insight from good books, from

listening to this podcast, from listening to Clem.

And the action is 80% plus.

Do something with it.

Talk to somebody about it.

Make a commitment to step back from the

business and start answering some of these questions.

Reach out and get help.

And so if this has resonated with you,

please subscribe and leave a rating and review

somewhere on Apple or Spotify or go check

out the video on YouTube.

You can check out this article in the

show notes from today.

And you can reach out to Clem.

There's no positive change until you decide to

change.

To decide means you're eliminating other options.

Your legacy is the impact your life has

on others today, starting today.

You decide your legacy.

Nobody else gets to decide that for you.

You decide your legacy for your business, for

your life, for your family.

You decide your legacy.

Start today.

I appreciate you greatly.

And I'll talk to you next time.

And thank you very much for being here,

Clem.

I really appreciate having you on here today.

So really great insight.

Great information.