Ep85_ForgivenessPower_full
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Adam: [00:00:00] So, believe it or not, I have a fear of rejection. I can be a people pleaser big time, and in my mind I have these thoughts that people will reject me if I say something controversial or if I say something that they could disagree with and it really sinks in. I can have a huge reaction to it, yet I know it's not true and it keeps me, it puts, pushes me away.

I mean, I avoid, avoid avoid [00:01:00] and then eventually I've faced things. I've done much better the last five years, six, maybe 10 years of my life of actually facing things. But it has caused some significant issues in my life. And so today what we're gonna talk about is I'm gonna talk about facing Your Darkness.

And I have a special guest on the podcast today, and I'm gonna introduce him in a second here. But I read a quote recently that really inspired me. It's from Carl Jung Swiss psychiatrist. He's been very inspiring to me and it's where your fear is, there is your task. What are we avoiding in our lives that we can face where your fear is?

What is that reaction emotionally that we have to certain situations or topics or issues or things that happened in our past, whatever it may be that we have this reaction to. So welcome to episode number 84 of the Decide Your Legacy podcast. If you've ever found this podcast helpful, subscribe so you won't miss another episode and pull out your phone, give it a rating and review Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcasts.

That helps it to grow organically. Many of you listening today have not given it a rating and review, hundreds of you listening today, in fact, and I [00:02:00] really, really appreciate it because it reaches more people and helps more people. And I'm your host, Adam Gragg. I'm a licensed clinical therapist for over 20 years.

I'm a legacy coach and my life purpose is to help other people find. Confidence, self-confidence to face their biggest fears so they can live and leave their desired legacy. And I aim to teach concepts that you can discuss with a six year old and they're gonna resonate with it. They can understand it. I also discuss topics that I struggle with myself.

I'm a fellow traveler. I'm a fellow traveler. I have do not have all this stuff figured out, and I have to do uncomfortable things in my life. As well because I believe we best learn by example. Kids learn by what they see, not what they hear. And so some something uncomfortable that I did recently, and I share this with you because there's not much more damaging to your mental health than not, than avoiding your fears, than not facing your fears.

And there's not much more helpful and important to your mental health than actually facing things. Playing it safe is not your friend. And so something I did recently is I chose, and I can just say this for [00:03:00] today 'cause I might take this back tomorrow, but I chose to forgive.

In a situation that is very, very difficult for me to forgive in. So, and there's a great fear that comes over me when I forgive in certain situations, certain people in my life, because I believe that I'm letting go of this shield that can keep me from getting hurt by them again. So that's what I have to let go of.

I mean, it's kind of scary. It's kind of crazy. I could take it back. I could pick it up later today, but for today, I have chosen to forgive and I'm acting and behaving in a way as if I have forgiven. I. And we'll see how it goes. So, and this, like I've mentioned before, is the podcast you do not just listen to.

So I'm not the only one that has to do uncomfortable things today. My guest has to do some uncomfortable things. My producer Brian, is probably doing some uncomfortable things and I'm doing some uncomfortable things even by talking today. But you gotta do something uncomfortable as well. So another quote from Carl ung.

So what we walk away from, Shying away from ostensibly forgetting. You know, that basically means like brushing aside, procrastinating, just not [00:04:00] dealing with is dangerously close to us and eventually it will return. But with red redoubled force, this is an important topic because facing your darkness, whatever that darkness may be, will give you some freedom.

Not facing it, it's gonna come back. It's not gonna just lie dormant, whatever it might be, it's just not gonna do that. That's not how it works. You know, a broken leg won't heal itself unless we get help from a doctor and get it set. If it needs to be set or get a cast on it, do something with it. So I want you to speak into your phone, write it down.

Something in your life that you know you shy away from, ostensibly forget. Walk away from that, you know, is an issue you need to face. So whatever it might be. It could be a person, it could be a boss, it could be a health situation. It could be one of your kids. It could be a kid you haven't engaged with in a long time.

It could be a friendship, some kind of career professional endeavor that you know you want to take on, but you've shied away from it. You know that you want to do it, but you haven't done it. So this topic here, Our [00:05:00] society does not help people with, we do not encourage people to face things that are very difficult in their lives, although we do know that they have issues.

We are filled with walking wounded people that are 60, 70, 80 years old that have never dealt with things that impact them in their lives every single day. And the people around them know it, yet they won't admit it because it's too scary, because it's too painful, 'cause it's too much work. Yet the stress that they've caused in their lives and the damage they've caused to their lives by not living their lives fully and freely because they haven't faced the darkness.

Is tremendous. And if they do, whether they're 85 and they face it and they admit and they realize that things impacted them, maybe it was a relation with their father, or maybe it was a loss of a sibling as a child, or maybe it was a divorce back in their thirties or forties, and they actually face it, which means you're actually getting some closure, some clarity, then they're gonna experience something tremendous that they've never actually experienced before, potentially up until this moment.

So you doing this just today? I had a friend who's an attorney and he said that he stood up to a [00:06:00] client and said, you know, in a very difficult case situation, basically he was doing some legal work for them and he stood up and he said, Hey you guys, I'm doing my best job possible here. You know, I'm doing what I can to help you out, and if you need to find another attorney, I'll help you find another attorney.

Looked at him square in the eye and said that, and that's not the way he normally behaves. And he came to me and he called me and said he was really stressed out from that interaction 'cause they got upset and it was difficult conversation. He had to go through some things in his mind like, I failed, I'm wrong.

I did something wrong here by having a boundary. Yet he told me at the end of our discussion that he felt energized by the whole situation. 'cause it was the first time in his professional career where he felt like he said what he really wanted to say. He would just do it. And passively go through the motions.

And then he built some level of resentment in the whole situation because he wasn't sharing truly what he wanted as a boundary in that situation. And it ended up, in fact, in that call, it ended up being this realization that, okay, I did the right thing, I. [00:07:00] Even got some affirmation from that client that he did the right thing and they didn't leave and run.

In fact, their respect for him grew in that situation and felt this level of energy. And that's what I want for you today. So if you start facing things, you will feel energized eventually. It will not be immediate, but it'll be eventually. And I have a guest today. His name's Rusty Rathbun, and he is somebody I've known for.

Many years. I've probably known Rusty for seven, eight, maybe, I don't know, for quite a while. And Rusty just kinda give a little background information. I'll let him introduce himself as well. But I had a conversation with Rusty maybe three months ago or some time in that period, and I saw a change in him.

And I mentioned it to him. I said, man, there's been a shift in you and something is going on here and it's really good and let's not forget this. And it was a self-confidence shift and, and Rusty's not a guy that I would say lacks confidence. I think self-confidence is very different than confidence.

So someone can be very confident as an attorney, yet lack the overall self-confidence to handle difficult situations when it comes to maintaining boundaries, when it comes [00:08:00] to actually saying no, or saying yes, or expressing love or doing something that's vulnerable. Yet we can lack this self-confidence, yet have this confidence in this one specific area in our lives.

So we can be very, very confident as, let's say a dad, but not so confident as a husband. So we have self-confidence overall as a general sense. I can handle whatever is thrown my way, I can actually get through it. So a little bit about Rusty is. I'll just share some things that I know about him that I think are really cool.

So, and I want him to really discuss this breakthrough that he experienced as well. 'cause that's really one of the things that it can be so helpful to you listening today. Mm-hmm. And, but he's had an amazing life. I mean, he has been, I would say he's been a serial entrepreneur. I mean, so for 33 years he worked for Subway and he brought Subway, at least him and a partner brought Subway to Kansas. Mm-hmm. What year was that, Rusty?

Rusty: R 1987. We opened up our first store August 4th, 1987. In Liberal Kansas.

Adam: In Liberal Kansas. That was the first Subway. That was the first Subway in Kansas. In Kansas, right there. Okay. Yep. And so like at how many stores did you [00:09:00] manage?

At one point.

Rusty: Me and my employees managed, overseeing 142 stores.

Adam: All In Kansas?

Rusty: Yes.

Adam: All in Kansas.

Rusty: All in Kansas.

Adam: So, yep. So, and he's had other businesses as well, and I'll let him talk about that too, but that's not the main reason I've brought him here. It's kinda like me saying I've been a mental health person professional for 25 years or whatever.

You know, that's credentials. I know some of you wanna hear that kind of stuff to tune in and listen. You know, the real things and the substance and the meaning of someone's life is not what they've achieved, but it's who they are. Yeah. And I know that Rusty's a person that has integrity and he has lived and done things that are courageous in his life and faced things in his life in a unique way, honestly, being where he could have run.

And for me as well, like when I talk, I mean I have to share these thingss at times just because I know listeners tune in when they kind of give you, you get some, their expertise, you know, they have some experience and knowledge on the topic. But the things that drive me are the things I've been through and overcome.

At least I'm working on overcoming. Traumatic things in my life and things that I've had to experience that have [00:10:00] been painful and faced. And that's the kind of stuff that we're going to address today. And I believe Rusty's gonna have a tremendous perspective on this issue here today. And I'm gonna do a lot less talking here.

I know we're just getting started, but go ahead and, you know, rusty, kind of give us your background, where you grew up and kind of experiences in life and maybe anything you wanna share about entrepreneurial experiences that you've had.

Rusty: You know, that's That's an loaded question and all that. One, one of the things I grew up in a very, we, we moved around a lot as gypsies kind of type thing and all this.

We moved about as often as my dad changed shirts and stuff. It, it was horrible. But it also taught us a lot on our character side of stuff because we never stayed until we got in 19 68, 69. We were never at hardly one city for a full school year. Every semester we were somewhere else, [00:11:00] and it, it, it was really tough.

But I think that was a character builder because we learned how to make friends easy. We, we had good neighbors. We just, we just were rounded. Rounded people and stuff, and my family and stuff. So we, so how many different schools did you go to then? Oh my gosh. It. 'cause we would, my grandparents helped a lot with growing up as well.

So we would move in. It's a turbulent relationship between my mom and dad and all that. So, we may be three or four months here, then go down to Vai, Oklahoma, then come back here, and then may go somewhere else and live and then, It, it, there's not enough time in the day for me to sit here and do that, but when we moved to Turpin, Oklahoma in 68, that's where we've, as a family, dad wanted to move and as a family, we said, no, we're [00:12:00] done.

We are not gonna move anymore. We're, we've had it, but we stayed in the same school. Thank God. We moved five or six different times in different houses and stuff. Okay. But we stayed there in, in Turpin and, and that was probably the founding thing for all of us, is that we found a home. That's what we called home in Turpin.

I mean

Adam: in Tur. Turpin, yeah.

Rusty: A small town America. There was 26 kids in my graduating class.

Adam: 26 kids.

Rusty: 26.

Adam: Wow.

Rusty: That's it. Yeah. And we played eight man football. We still played basketball. The girls, the girls' basketball was still. Three on three half court.

It was great growing up there. I I, I have a lot of great memories.

Adam: So how many homes did you live in growing up then? Oh, my. Or can you even say it's,

Rusty: it's a, well, when you think about 14, how about Vici? Spearman, Peran Turpin Back to and, [00:13:00] and back to Perry. And, and, and it just, yeah. It, it just, sometimes we'd move away and then we'd come back.

Yeah. And sometimes dad would leave and then we'd come back and it's just,

Adam: and what was going on in the home or the relationship that was so turbulent? So growing up,

Rusty: the, the, I'm just gonna throw that out there. It was my dad is a very kind man and all this other, but he was an alcoholic. When he drank, it was not pretty.

And he was verbal, abusive, physically abusive, and we grew up with that for years and years. But I took that as the best teacher for me of what I did not want to be. Yeah. I was like, no, I'm not gonna grow up like that. Yeah. So when, when you're presented with those kind of obstacles and stuff in life that you stick up for your brothers and your sister, you stick up for your mom [00:14:00] and stuff, it really starts wearing you down to where that, you know, I've been accused of being very stoic.

Very stoic. And the reason for that is because when my dad would be very verbal and and physically abusive, I wouldn't having none of it because my brothers would cry. Sometimes I would. My mom definitely would. 'cause she didn't like the way he was treating it. So I had to become that, that face to where I did not want him knowing he scared the hell outta him.

So I had to be that guy I stood up for, I stood up against him. You know, that one time that it got, it got pretty nasty and dad was very, very strong. And I keep kidding around that, you know, he was like the third generation of walking upright in his family. 'cause he always drug his knuckles. But he still had a kind heart.

Now that one night that [00:15:00] it just, it was just too much.

I. I went and loaded up my dad's gun. I knew where it was at, and I, I just damn near pulled the trigger when he walked into the bedroom and asked me, he goes, Hey, what are you doing? I said, dad, we've had enough. We've had enough of this. You, you gotta stop this. And he goes, what are you gonna do, shoot me?

And I just kept loading the pistol up. And he goes, you ain't got enough guts. And I stuck that in his forehead and left an indention on his forehead. And I said, I will shoot you. And he goes, you ain't got enough guts. And I pulled that hammer back and I know my mom, I hear her saying, rusty, Russ, Russ. I said, dad, I'll kill you.

I said, I've had enough. That was it. He walked out. That was it. That was it. Yeah. And it made a believer outta him. Family was [00:16:00] crying and all that. It, it was, it was horrible. Yeah. But it was still something that helped define. Of who we are now. I can't go back and change. I wouldn't want to, I would not wanna change anything in my past except for my mom, but it still made us who we are today.

Adam: Your mom's experience with your dad.

Rusty: Absolutely.

Adam: Right?

Rusty: Yeah, absolutely.

Adam: You wouldn't want her to have

Rusty: Absolutely. Yeah.

Adam: Yeah, yeah. And you know, that's the thing is a lot of times people will tell me over the years, I mean, it's very specific questions if I ask them about their past, They will water it down or they'll act as if it hadn't impacted them, or they'll act as if it was really good, or they'll have to act as if it was the most horrible thing ever.

And something that's impressive about people when they can see the both good and the and the bad. Yeah. Yep. And this, well, I mean there's, there's both good and bad. Another quote from Carl Jung is, is man can endure the hardest of trials if he sees the meaning in them. Mm-hmm. The whole difficulty lies in creating that meaning, you know, which for me, I mean, it was creating meaning out of.

Difficult situations in my life. I mean, just [00:17:00] dealing with abandonment and rejection and situations where people that I trusted the most. I had left, and so I had to find the meaning in that and I couldn't find the meaning in that. But eventually you find some unique kind of spark. It's like this is something that I don't have to carry with me as hindering my life.

This is something that can actually inspire me to help others and be used to help others. Mm-hmm. And so, Carl Jung also, and I'm gonna link actually in the show notes to all these quotes from Carl. Cool. From Carl Jung. 'cause I, I, I find the guy is brilliant, but so knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darkness in other people.

Rusty: Yep.

Adam: And actually knowing your own darkness. So what, what's the shift that happened in you that I sensed three months ago or whatever? 'cause I mean, I remember when I met you, it was not like, Well, the reality is, is like you would, I personally think you would, you know, and we've been friends a while. Yeah.

But you wouldn't talk about some of the things directly, you know, and be a kind of a goofball or whatever. This is you, I believe it's definitely your personality and all that.

Rusty: Yeah.

Adam: But so what's the shift, man? I mean,

Rusty: the, the shift came on, on a reality side of life [00:18:00] when, you know, something just triggers something, you know?

And my voice is cracking a little bit here, but,

It's almost like getting a second opinion from your doctor on this is happening and this is happening. So I took a lot of your advice and I started searching through books, reading and one of the books I liked the best. I just finished it last night. It was called Let That Shit Go. Great book. Great book, great book.

And when I started it years ago, 'cause I bought it in 2021, but I really never dove into it. But on my second opinion, it was that a light bulb came on and went and said, you know what? Why are you carrying this [00:19:00] burden around on forgiveness? So what I did, And so I went on ahead and I said, I've gotta do this.

So I forgave my dad. I forgave my mom, and I forgave my older brother. And by doing that, whew, it's gone. And it was like, holy crap, this is cool. As the weeks went on, my memory, I started remembering a lot, lot more, and I. Oh my gosh, this is great. I started remembering stuff that I, hell, I forgot. I just never thought of that.

I forgot it because I just didn't know it was positive, but it was, it was all positive because I've left that and forgive 'em, but then I forgave myself as well because when I forgave them, it wasn't for their actions as much as it was in me. I was, I was the [00:20:00] one that, that had. It's all self, self done.

So once I started and I forgave him, forgave me for letting it all happen and the way it went down, then it all started to make sense on how I became a different me. I became a calmer me. I had one of my buddies say the other day. He said, your demeanor has has changed a lot. And I said, I appreciate that.

So when, when you start thinking about the forgiveness part of life, And like we, I was talking to you the other day on the whiteboard and stuff. My forgiveness took up a lot of black in my heart, a lot of space in my heart. And lack of forgiveness. Lack of forgiveness. Lack, yeah, absolutely. Lack of forgiveness, because [00:21:00] I didn't know how to, it's not that I didn't know how to do it, just I'm not gonna do it.

But I carried that around. But once I did, I had three colors. I had black, gray, and white. I. The black, it's, it's not completely gone, but there's just a little, little, little little Billy. The gray has shrunk up and I got a lot more white. The white is a space I have left in my heart to fill it up with all the positive stuff to get rid of the negative stuff.

I mean, it, it, it just makes sense when you start looking at it that way. So now my, my heart, my mind is open for more positivity. You and I talked one time and said about truths and lies. Well, the lies are being pushed, and you fill up your heart with truths. The truth and stuff.

Adam: So what makes it so hard to actually go back and let go of this stuff in our past?

'cause I'm just kind of the, the white, the black [00:22:00] is, represents the darkness, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you know, Carl Hume would, I would call this your shadow self. You don't wanna forget your shadow stuff 'cause it's, and that's not going into the whole extre Yeah. Extent of what he would describe as this. The, the shadow self.

But, but you can do your own research on your own. But I mean, I'm assuming that Rusty, that's like the unforgiveness, the darkness, the things you wanna let go of or learn from. Yes. Or change from. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. But, and then it's smaller now. Oh yeah. And the gray, what does that represent?

Rusty: The gray represents a, a part for me.

This is, for me, it represents a part of, I should forgive some, some of the stuff. It's easy to forgive. It's, it's no big deal. Yeah. Some of it is a little harder. And while you can do some in a day or two, some may take months, some may take years. That's what I call my gray part. Well, I know I will forgive, but sometimes it's just, it's, [00:23:00] it's getting there, but I don't carry the burden around the black.

I carried that around.

Adam: Okay.

Rusty: That was horrible. Horrible. So, like I said, it, it, it's. Life is not just black and white. There's some gray area in it. And that's the way I was trying to portray this as part of a gray area in life that, 'cause I know I'm gonna forgive people, but I also know too that, you know, there's one or two people in my life that, mm, I'm, I will, but it just, just gonna take a little bit more time.

Yeah. Yeah. But there's, there's some, and when I say. Two other people. They were old acquaintances from years ago and all this,

Adam: some situations that forgiving, it's cliche, it's 'cause you'll hear even a cliche is like, you know, if you don't forgive people, then you're only hurting yourself.

Rusty: Yep.

Adam: And. I think that's kind of a watered down version. And I will say that forgiveness and trust [00:24:00] are very different. Forgiveness mm-hmm. Involves it's, they're totally different concepts because if, if you forgive somebody who hurt you, it doesn't mean you're gonna interact with them. Correct. I think about like Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers, and then eventually he becomes second in command of Pharaoh and then he ends up forgiving them.

I think it was very difficult and everything, but he didn't, he had warm feelings towards his younger brother, Benjamin, but he ended up helping save their lives and giving 'em land. I don't know if he actually trusted 'em. Trust is very different. It takes, mm-hmm. It takes time. Like, like, you know, and whether you believe that's a story or really occurred, I believe it really occurred and, but Joseph and so, but I, it whatever you believe, I mean, the narrative.

And involved there is that there's, there's forgiveness is very different than, than trust. Oh, from my per perspective, absolutely. So am I gonna be a fool to go trust people who I know I have the potential to hurt me again,

Rusty: But trust is, is something that, and, and I was always a guy that said, I trust you until you gimme a reason not to.[00:25:00]

Now there's levels of trust, just like a friendship on ladders and stuff. Every time I had, it seemed I had a best friend. Die or they died. So, I got another best friend. He's not going nowhere though. I got another best friend and he climbed that ladder of friendship and stuff to get where he is at today.

I've got others that are just, they're all right there too.

Adam: They're climbing the ladder.

Rusty: They're climbing the ladder

Adam: because they're giving you evidence that they're consistent and they're trustworthy

Rusty: and, and they're trustworthy and stuff.

Adam: Yeah. Right.

Rusty: So I think trust is, is, is on that same, that same level.

You, you start at baby steps. One rung at a time, just like a ladder. You go to trust here, then the trust there and then start building that up there. And that's how you get to where that somebody is, is the lovable. Just, just, oh, just everything. Because you always, everybody should want to get to that level of [00:26:00] complete, unadulterated trust, just unequivocally.

Adam: At least some people in your life where you can have that.

Rusty: Absolutely.

Adam: You won't have tons of people, but

Rusty: No, you don't need tons of people.

Adam: You don't need No, but to value and treasure.

Rusty: Exactly.

Adam: Why are, are we trying to be friends with people who aren't trustworthy too, which is what I believe leads to so much loneliness for people.

'cause they're trying to be friends with people really.

Rusty: I totally, I totally agree. Yeah.

Adam: It's kind of like you go through a divorce or you go through a situation where you lose a lot of friends 'cause they take sides.

Rusty: Yep.

Adam: Or you lose. And, you know, people be betray you, they don't behave properly, they whatever, and you get really hurt.

Mm-hmm. I mean, I can get really hurt, but, and you can think, okay, it's like fire has burned out everything but the good stuff, you know? Yeah. So you have just a few trees standing, but they're the real solid. Solid. Yeah. They're ones trees. Yeah.

Rusty: They're the oaks.

Adam: I have, I got a question for you. So how, how did growing up and going to a bunch of different schools. And living in a bunch of different homes and having new people to meet often. How did that impact you in your adult life?

Rusty: Well, it what it did, it taught me a lesson [00:27:00] on one. I didn't wanna move a lot. I mean, when you load stuff up in the back of the pickup, you throw it in the car, you get in the trailer and you take off.

I That's tough.

Adam: Didn't wanna, how, how did it impact you? Negatively. You believe? Negatively. 'cause you probably had to meet new people all the time. Negatively as friends and like,

Rusty: jiminy. Gosh, when are we gonna find a place that we can call home

Adam: Uhhuh?

Rusty: When, when is it, you know, so it, but I wouldn't change nothing.

I really wouldn't.

Adam: Now that you have the perspective you have, 'cause you have some meaning absolutely behind it, but surely did it not, did it. What kind of Kuhn, what kind of challenges did it maybe have in, in relating to people challenges as an adult that maybe you carried into your adult life and

Rusty: Yeah.

Dad was a cop in most of the places that we, we went, so we had instant respectability there. But still, as a kid, a new [00:28:00] kid on the block, you're walking into school. Three or four weeks. School's already started. Yeah. And then you're like going, everybody's watching me. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. So you make friends here and there.

Here and there. They come up and talk to you, make friends out on the playground. You make some enemies on the playground. Everybody wants to pick on you because we, I was small when I was a freshman in high school, I was four foot 11 and a half. I weighed 98 pounds. I was really small. So it was all. It was a character builder in all of us.

Now that I can see. Yeah, I mean, it was great character building. It was because if you start going back and changing it, then it's gonna change you. Yeah. From who you are today. So No, no, no, no, no.

Adam: You wouldn't change it. You wouldn't change it.

Rusty: No.

Adam: Yet I've had people tell me when they grow up in that situation that maybe they interact with people in a way where they feel like they have to make friends quickly and they might not be themselves, and they are more [00:29:00] rejection sensitive because they've already been through it and had to leave and well, it's like Carl Jung until you make the unconscious conscious it will, it will direct your life.

Yeah. And you will call it fate like mm-hmm. The unconscious shift. You've made the unconscious conscious in your life related to forgiving your dad and forgiving your mom. Yeah. Forgiving yourself. Yeah, forgiving. And so how did you do, how do you forgive those kinds of situations? What does that mean?

Rusty: Well, to me, I mean for me personally, it's just letting go.

It's just like going, you know, I can't go back and change the past, so why in the hell do I wanna drag it with me? I can't go back and change it. Yeah. So you just say, you know what, you can have it mom and dad, you can have it. I'm done. I don't want to, I don't wanna drag that. I wanna drag that around no more.

It, it's, it's, it was very [00:30:00] hurtful and stuff, but you know, after you and I talked and I do a lot of research and stuff like that, I knew for a fact that if I didn't get rid of it, It was gonna be, well, not the death of me, but it was going to be it was gonna be something that was gonna hold me back from the future.

You know, I wanna build a life with people that I love and people that I trust, and it's when you hold onto the past for so long. Like I said, I gave you that one instance. I was watching a movie. You guys pay attention, okay? You gotta, I was watching a movie and they were trying to get, the pirates. Were saying, Hey, if you don't tell us where the the the treasure's at, we throw your buddy overboard.

They're going him over and they go, okay, throw him over. We don't care. So they threw him over and it was [00:31:00] like, okay, so he's bobbing in the water, he's bobbing water, his hands are tied. Okay, Uhhuh. And then all of a sudden reality hit, they threw the anchor over. He was tied to, and when he did that, I mean, he went down to a dark, dark, what I call a rabbit hole, but he kept going down, down, down, and I went, what a great analogy to use on a kettlebell or an anchor that is your past.

And then you decide that, Hey, I, I got a hold of it. Oh yeah. I'm the only one that can let it go. No one else can.

Adam: You're the only one that can pick it up too.

Rusty: Exactly right. Yeah. So here it is. You got it handed to you, hold onto that, and if it pulls you down to a dark rabbit hole and you're going like, wait a minute, I, I think I'm done with this.

So [00:32:00] as I kept going down, down, down, I'm going, I'm done. I, I'm, I'm done. Mm-hmm. Let it go. So when I let it go, I started floating back up and there's the light and it's like, whew. I just saved myself. I just saved myself with the help of God and others. I just saved myself from drowning in self-pity the past and all that other crap that goes with it.

I'm done with it. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not going back there. You know, I used to have a, I gotta tell you this real quick. Used to have arguments and stuff, and when somebody takes and goes to the past, With an argument. Let 'em go.

Adam: Let 'em go.

Rusty: You go yourself. I'm not going with you. That's right. I mean, you think about it, let them go themselves.

Adam: Well I, that's, 'cause there's things in my past that I've let go of a number of times they've been so hurtful to me and the temptation to pick it back up. Yeah. From my own self-protection Yeah. Is like very tempting. So [00:33:00] It does. It is. And then you mentioned forgiving yourself. What does that mean? And what did you have to forgive in yourself?

Rusty: Well, I forgave myself for one, for carrying that burden around because when you think about, God, this what happened in the seventies, that's a long time to carry. That's 50 years to carry this stuff. I graduated in 1972. So when you think about the dynamics of carrying this around for 50 fricking years, no, it was way too long.

It was overdue, but I never let, I never let my dad or my mom, I got mad at my mom 'cause she always stayed. Stayed in that situation. And I got mad at my dad because he created that situation. Mom could have fixed it by just saying You're out. But she always kept going back, going back, going back. [00:34:00] And one of the, the movies, I think I told you about this several months ago, and pay attention out there.

This is a great movie where the crawdads sing. I seen that about four or five months ago, and I'm down in the basement of my house watching it. I lost it. I cried like a baby because a lot of that, a lot of that hit home and I knew I didn't wanna watch it. I didn't wanna finish it. I had to, I had to see what the end result was in the movie.

And I'll tell you what,

Adam: you know, that reminds, reminds me. 'cause it, it reminds me of just how easy. So what we walk away from, shy, away from, ostensibly forget is dangerously close to us and eventually returns 'cause people. So there's been a movie that I saw that was extremely impactful called The Sound of Freedom, and I highly, highly recommend it in people.

Have told me they [00:35:00] don't wanna see it. It's because it's about children that are sold in a, they're abducted and sold into the sex. Yeah. Slavery, human trafficking. Yeah, that's what I heard too. And it's very powerful movie. And so those scariest things in our lives. So if we're so scared of it, you know, therein lies our task and we can face it.

But I'm not saying this stuff is easy. 'cause it's almost like, yeah. You know, I gave the illustration to a client this morning about forgiveness and I mean, I know my struggle with it and I just had him hold his pen and I said, and I held my pen. I said, just let go of it. And he let go of it. It fell to the floor.

It was a nice pen and are you gonna pick it up again? We talked about it for a while, but that was letting go. Well you can do it, but then you can figure out whether you wanna pick it up again. 'cause you're not gonna feel safe. Yeah. Having let go of that thing in your life. Yeah. And it's amazing what people can do.

So like here, another Carl Jung, people will do almost anything, no matter how absurd to avoid facing their own souls. Yeah. So why do people avoid facing something that they know can actually provide and is the doorway to freedom in their lives?

Rusty: Because they, they, for me it was like, [00:36:00]

Adam: And they say didn't impact me.

They say it didn't have an impact. Right.

Rusty: But it was part of the culture that I was raised in, that you didn't talk about that kind of stuff. You didn't tell grandma and granddad, Hey dad, beat the hell outta mom. You just, you just didn't do that. Everybody kept it inside and so we kept it inside the four walls of our house.

So it was, it was a culture.

Adam: No one ever knew. The school didn't, they didn't ever say, you guys are moving so much, or What's the deal with the physical abuse or,

Rusty: well, they, they dad because dad couldn't keep a job because dad would get pissed off at, at work and tell 'em to go stick it and because, this is great, 'cause they didn't do it his way.

They were wrong. This is the way it needs to be done. No, no, Leonard, it's not, this is the way we do it here. No, I'm out. I mean, he, he changed jobs a lot and sometimes we wouldn't see him for weeks, months. Of course, mom and dad were fighting and all this other crap. And [00:37:00] so it was very, and again, I, I'll reiterate this to everybody out there.

I wouldn't change nothing because that's

Adam: now, now, yeah.

Rusty: Now like, because if I, if, if I could go back and change and, and. You know? Yeah.

Adam: You wouldn't wish it upon somebody though.

Rusty: No. No.

Adam: Like you're, but you're able to see the meaning in it now and then. Now, if, and I say this myself a lot, like I wouldn't be able to help people the way that I can, and I've told you this, Rusty.

Rusty: Yeah.

Adam: Had I not gone through the situations that I've gone through and been able to, and I thought it was gonna do me in at times, I mean mm-hmm. There were times where I, I always had hope. I never gave up, but I would say it was just a minuscule amount of hope. But I had people around me. I had friends.

I had, yep. You know, I had people pushing me, but I had God, I knew that there was gonna be, I just couldn't understand. It's like, how am I gonna get through this? And then you can look, and I, I mean, I hate to even talk about it. 'cause then you think, well, am I ever gonna go back to those places? It's like [00:38:00] I've been to really dark places.

Mm-hmm. And I know what it's, but it helps me to. Be a better person today. I

Rusty: puts in things in perspective a little bit. Yeah.

Adam: So I wouldn't give it up, but I wouldn't wish it upon anybody. Mm-hmm. You know, like it's not like No. And I know other people have had things that are difficult as well. Yeah. And they're very difficult that I can't even relate to.

Oh my gosh. 'cause I wasn't abducted. I agree. I wasn't. I agree. You know, I mean, some of the stuff that, even in the sound of freedom, I mean it's like so incredibly hard to stomach, but it also shows you the incredible power of the will and also the incredible good that there is. Like, it's so great because you could look and say, I don't trust people 'cause I've been hurt.

I'm not gonna trust people. I'm gonna shut down. Yeah. But you, you close yourself off from all the great people that there are. Yeah. Because there are great people, like there are, there are good freaking people in this world. Oh, absolutely is. And like, And, but I Well, and you find them and then you're gonna hold onto 'em.

Yeah. 'cause you really know how, how, what a treasure it is. Yeah. And, and, and unfortunately, sometimes we find out that people in our family have let us down. And it's not that they're bad people, but they have their own darkness they haven't dealt with. Right. I [00:39:00] mean, it's like, okay. And now I can see. Yep.

And even, and even lead in that situation rather than being sucked into it. 'cause I know that it's their own stuff. It's not really about me like your dad. Mm-hmm. It wasn't about you, it was about him. It was about him. That was correct. It was wrong. I mean, horrible And I'm it, but it wasn't about, it was his own darkness that he hadn't faced.

Right. So,

Rusty: because his culture, well his, when he raised with an alcoholic dad,

Adam: it's kind of, you know, you go to the dentist and your first experience at the dentist's office is they hurt you. And then you're terrified of the dentist from that point on. 'cause you're, you're near eight and then you go and every time you're gonna go to the dentist, because they didn't have an experience or a reference point to see that there dentist doesn't have to hurt you all the time.

And I've never had a bad experience with the dentist, although it is a major fear for a lot of people. I have worked with clients with terrifying fear of the dentist for sure. Yeah. So, and you know, I don't have any of my own teeth because I didn't brush and flo, I'm just kidding about that.

Rusty: But as, as you say something about the dentist, you get hurt once. You're gonna be hurt again. Okay. Yeah. It's just like love, you know, opening, lift your heart up. Yeah. [00:40:00] I mean, when you think about that aspect of it is that, okay, now how do we, how do you get trust? How do you open up your heart to the next one?

To the next one? And then like we've talked in our meetings and stuff closed off. You know your heart rusty, your heart's closed. I know I'm afraid of getting hurt, but I've also learned too in the last couple of years, that love can be very blind. Love can be very forgiving, and love can be. Know, love actually controls the world when you start thinking about that four letter word, but you have to be open to receive it as well.

'cause from people. Yeah, exactly right. Because some people out there, they're just, they're just mean. They're, they're, they don't care about you as long as they love the money and all this other. There's the other side of it though, that when you're talking about a spouse or a brother or [00:41:00] sister, teacher, best friends, the love that they have is the love that you need for trust to open up a little bit more, a little bit more, and a little bit more, you know, it, it's just taking it to the next level.

Mm. Every, every day, every day. It's a different level. Every day it's a different level.

Adam: But you're choosing to trust

Rusty: Absolutely.

Adam: You're ly to put yourself in risk in getting hurt again. It's like Exactly. So here where love rules, there is no there. There is no will to power. And where power predominates love is lacking, the one is the shadow of the other.

You don't need power and control where there's love but love. Is the relinquishing of power and control. Yes. And trusting the process and the whole situation. We can't change anything until we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses.

Rusty: Yep.

Adam: We can't change anything until we accept it. And so what would happen, what do you think the next year, 10 years of your life would be like if you had not made this decision to let go and forgive yourself and others Rusty, the, [00:42:00] the next 10 years of your life?

Okay. The next thing, I'm not gonna ask you your age, but

Rusty: No, no, I, I'm, I'm 69 years old. It's okay.

Adam: I'm 49.

Rusty: I'm, it's alright. Yeah. Like I said, I gave it away when I said I graduated in, in 1972 and, and I've been You did give away, carried this

Adam: around. That's true. 50 years. Yeah.

Rusty: So, live and learn and, and

Adam: how does that, so over the next 10 years of your life be like, okay, had you not forgiven and let go for yourself and others.

Rusty: Okay. This, this is gonna be a crazy answer, but I, I have no fricking idea. All I know is dark is dark. So what happens for me is that the next day, 'cause you can't set, you really can't set any goals. I mean, if you do, they're half-hearted. I mean, it's it

Adam: without forgiving?

Rusty: It's, it's a, yeah, it's a new day now.

It's a new month. It's a new year of opening up and looking, [00:43:00] looking forward to a better day tomorrow. Forget the past. 'cause you can't change it. You, you really can't. So why Hang on to it. Yeah. Just let that crap go. So you, you think of, okay, I'll make plans for tomorrow. Then tomorrow you make plans for the next day.

It's all right to set goals out there, and when you do, make sure you have a plan for it as well. Our worst things that we can ever do is, is want, want to set a goal. And we don't have, we have a plan to do it, but we don't have the strategies in place to make it happen. And sometimes the strategies change in a week a day.

It'll eventually get there. Yeah. But I don't wanna go too far ahead at 10 years. Yeah, you just say it would be darker. It just, it would've been just as dark, if not darker, because my heart got heavy. Every year. It [00:44:00] just get a little heavier, a little heavier, and when it gets heavy, it's a little darker, a little darker, and a little darker.

So you just calm the hell down. Find the forgiveness for them and yourself and move on. I mean, it really is. Just move on.

Adam: You know, in the past thing here too, I like to think of my past when I, and it is in my conscious awareness, the subconscious becoming conscious and I know I'm being triggered in this situation and I'm really sensitive to rejection because of my past.

Rusty: Mm-hmm.

Adam: That's not living in my past. It's just recognizing, getting space from it that this uncomfortable feeling, this is trauma in me, man. This is not, yeah. Like, I'm so uncomfortable in this situation, I wanna run from it. I do not wanna be here. Yeah. I do not wanna say anything here. But that's my past.

And then once I recognize it's not really me, then I can start letting go of it and saying in my, in myself, in my mind it's like, it's like, you know, on the C N B C, you, you're gonna have the stock ticker on the bottom. Yep. You watch the news and it's always going, going, going. Okay. So I've heard this illustration for many years and I like it [00:45:00] myself.

It's that stock ticker is Your past and how you're defining yourself, your self-concept, your self-worth. So if I say something to these people and stand up, they're gonna reject me. It's gonna go bad. I'm gonna feel like a failure. Yeah. It's gonna be my freaking fault. And you changing that ticker is hard work.

But you start saying that, Nope, that's my past. I can start changing that. Look at these good people. I can be open. Yeah. With people, because I can stand up for myself and I am worth it. And I am worthy. Yep. And it is good. Yeah. And so that's the, that's the problem with saying just, just forget the past.

Rusty: Mm-hmm.

Adam: Because it impacts you, like I would imagine, and I've known you long enough that when you Yeah. Are potentially, if you're, if you're, if you're potentially, and I had a client that told me this, you know, rejection sensitive from people where you're gonna blame yourself. Yeah. If they, if they don't like what you say, you're gonna internalize it and say, well, I must have done something wrong.

Well, that's your past talking and recognizing that's freedom from it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Freedom from your past in that situation. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the, why would, why is making amends with people when you have wronged them important? Oh, but wait a second. Let me hold that [00:46:00] question. Okay. One thing I wanna highlight that Rusty said that I think is super clear, and I wanted, were you saying that it, it's not really possible to have the clarity you need to move forward in life because when you don't have the, when you haven't forgiven,

Rusty: I totally agree because your head's up in the cloud, you, you get a haze around you and you're so used to the haze and it's there.

But then once it's gone, clarity comes into, yeah. Things start coming into focus. You, you, you, you, you eat better. Your brain is a lot clearer. Things start happening in a way that you're going. Oh, why in the hell did I do this a long time ago? But again, rejection, that you gotta forgive yourself. Exactly right.

You, you, you got to do that. And my whole thing was, is that people in my, in, in my past, I always wanted them. Oh, by gosh, until they apologize to me. [00:47:00] I, no, I'm not gonna forgive him or anything. Like, no, that was my ego talking. And so don't do that. Just don't do that.

Adam: You can forgive without them apologizing.

Rusty: Absolutely. But will you trust them? 'cause that is their Yes, I will. You will trust him. Yes, I will.

Adam: Yes. Trust him again. So you're gonna forgive the guy that stole a hundred grand from you. Absolutely. And then you're gonna trust him again with managing your money.

Rusty: Now that I don't know. But you think about it

Adam: maybe.

Are they really sorry? Are they truly like on their, you know, they really recognize how

Rusty: No, they, they have to feel, they have to forgive themselves for it. I mean, just because I do that means nothing. Yeah. But if they don't forgive themself.

Adam: Because I've had people in my life that have said they're sorry, the same thing a hundred times, literally.

Yet they keep going back and doing it. Yeah. And I keep trusting and I keep getting hurt and I've had to say, well, I can't really trust with this kind of thing in this situation 'cause they're not changing their behavior. I can forgive and I want to forgive, but I can't really trust them. And maybe you could trust them.

Absolutely. If they came back and they paid you the a hundred thousand dollars back and they said how sorry [00:48:00] they were and how much of an impact it had.

Rusty: Okay.

Adam: But that's an apology that gives you the ability to trust you, not forgive them for that. That apology is not necessarily to forgive them, is what I'm understanding you're saying and what I believe.

But it is, it is necessary to trust them because they really know how bad it hurt you. 'cause you went without food and you couldn't put your kids through college. Yeah. 'cause they stole that a hundred grand from your whatever. I mean, but. You're not, you're letting go of that resentment, but you're choosing to forgive him, but maybe you're not gonna choose to trust him.

Rusty: O okay, so if I had a guy that stole a hundred thousand dollars from me, but just because he stole a hundred thousand doesn't mean I'm gonna put him in the same capacity of managing my money either. He may have another

Adam: Yeah.

Rusty: Strength that I like. So I said, look, I'm gonna trust you to go paint the walls, or

Adam: I wouldn't trust them with my money.

Rusty: Exactly. Point that, that's my point. Point's my point.

Adam: Or access to your money.

Rusty: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Adam: yeah. So, so how, why is making, like saying I'm sorry to people that you've hurt when it's [00:49:00] legit and like, You really are. Sorry. You really understand, and I think a lot of things in life, I didn't realize how I'd hurt people.

And when I did, it really hit me, and I'm still working through some of that. But what makes that important, Rusty? I mean,

Rusty: it, it, it's saying, I'm sorry. Is, is they, they hope that you accept that, that you say, you know, I told him I'm sorry. And, and I think he's pretty sincere that he. That he's accepted my apology and stuff.

And while a person might, because then that gets them in a different place going, okay, now maybe I can go say I'm sorry or apologize to somebody else and start his road of recovery and stuff. And before you know it, he's a different person because yeah, it, it, it's just one step at a time, you know, trying to get that level of trust.

Here to here, to here. Yeah. And I, and I, I, I think this is my, [00:50:00] this is my honest to God feeling that no matter what has happened out there in somebody's past recent or long ago, you can find a way to forgive 'em for that.

Adam: Even if they were molested, even if they were, they killed their, they, the person killed their dad or their mom, or,

Rusty: no, I almost did that and my, the, the whole thing was

Adam: there.

The stranger killed their mom. Or like, you know,

Rusty: the thing is though, is you've gotta find it within yourself. What happened in that situation and good or bad or indifferent? Didn't say you're gonna forget it. I just said, you need to forgive it. Yeah. So that's, that's two different subjects right there, right, that people need to understand because if you forget the past, then there goes all the positive stuff, all your good memories, pictures, all that stuff.

No, forgiveness is forgiveness. Doesn't mean, I'm gonna forget it, like the [00:51:00] trust, a hundred thousand dollars and all that. No. You can't forget the past, but you can damn sure forgive it. Yeah. Big time.

Adam: I mean, and I know people, I've experienced it. Yeah. Where people have had a child murdered and they have forgiven, and I've seen it where people haven't forgiven and seen a very different trajectory in their lives.

Absolutely. Yep. It's, yep. I agree. And I wouldn't say for a second that. I would tell someone, you need to forgive or whatever. Mm-hmm. It's their own process and, but I have seen it. So the greatest, most important problems in life are fundamentally insolvable. Our greatest, most important problems in our lives are fundamentally unsolvable.

They can never be solved, but only outgrown. We can't solve why your dad was an alcoholic. Yeah. Or why. That happened to you moving as a kid or why God put you or you were in that situation? Yeah. You can say you have meaning with it, but you have to outgrow it and you grow through it, if you found this podcast helpful, subscribe to shatterproof yourself.

These are seven [00:52:00] small steps to a giant leap in your mental health. So you don't wanna miss that link. I'm also gonna link to, in the show notes, again, all these Carl Jung quotes. Mm-hmm.

So, Rusty, I just think there's so much content here and everything is. Do you have any advice to somebody who is contemplating, you know, they're kind of seeing for the first time, maybe listening to this, that they gotta work through some things? Any advice that could maybe encourage them to take that next step and what they might do?

Rusty: You know, it's, it's look at yourself and see if you like yourself and make the positive changes within you, and that way it will go outward as well. 'cause if you don't take care of yourself. You, you're doomed to always have that burden upon you of, I won't forgive them, they're pricks, whatever you wanna call 'em.

I forgot to tell you the other day, I'm up in [00:53:00] Newton, Kansas and I pull over under a tree on my bike. And I'm going, hell, there's a book under the tree. Guess what it was? What was the book? The New Testament. Okay. Paid for back Uhhuh. So I, it was all wet, so I put it in the garage.

I put the pages all together and dried it out and all this other stuff. Yeah. Hadn't cracked it open yet, but I'm still working on, 'cause it was so soaked, but I wouldn't throw it away. I don't know why. I wouldn't, I wouldn't throw it away, but I got it. It's a blue, it says New Testament on it, it's paperback and all that other stuff, and I, I

Adam: treasure man.

Like it's absolutely, it's there for reason. I know, know. That's cool. You know, it reminds, I mean, I've always struggled, not always, but I've struggled the last few years with the scripture verse where Jesus challenges us. You know, if we're gonna gotta forgive others to be forgiven. To live forgiven. Now that

Rusty: I totally agree.

Totally agree. Because when what? When people see that, See, they're gonna be drawn to you as well,

Adam: that you [00:54:00] can forgive.

Rusty: Absolutely.

Adam: And that's, yeah.

Rusty: And that's, that's strength right there. It is. It really is. When you forgive somebody, that's strength. It really is.

Adam: So what, so tell us, rusty, kind of wrapping up here and everything, what do you have planned the next couple weeks?

You got something fun?

Rusty: Here we go. There we go. Okay. Uh uh, a buddy of mine, Claudio and I are leaving for Sturgis. Friday morning at three o'clock in the morning. We're going to Sturgis week we're going up there for a week. Then we're going to take Highway 212 all the way over to Crow Agency Montana, where Custer's last stand was, because he's Ukrainian.

He grew up and lived in Brazil.

Adam: Your buddy?

Rusty: Yeah, my buddy. He's Ukrainian. He grew up in Brazil and Columbia. Come over here to the States in early two thousands and he's. He, he just loves the American history, so I said, we can go, we can. He was so excited and so am I. Because it [00:55:00] seems like every year when, when they, they find stuff on about the little big horn and all this, find more bullets and and more letters.

Yeah. Say, well, this one's over here. This one's over here. But when you look at the dynamics, it, it's just really cool. And then we're gonna neander our way back and get back here probably Saturday night. But yeah, that's what we're gonna be doing for the next. Well, let's say call it two weeks. Yeah, yeah,

Adam: yeah.

Rusty: It's gonna be fun.

Adam: And so we're gonna put, if you wanna reach Rusty too, we'll put a link to an email, a contact for him. So if you want to send an email and that'll be in the show notes as well. And so, and I just wanna really just highlight something here, man, Rusty has done some amazing work and I think.

What I've seen here is courage and knowing how to let go. 'cause it is a difficult thing. I don't wanna make light of it. And I know Rusty's on a journey and I'm on a journey. Mm-hmm. And we don't have to pick it up again and it's gonna be a daily battle and a challenge. So what resonates with you the most [00:56:00] from this podcast?

I want you to think of what was something that Rusty said that Carl said who obviously we quoted him a lot today that you heard as a concept or something that was inspiring. It could be that I'm gonna face some things I'm gonna deal with. I'm gonna talk to that person, I'm gonna talk to a counselor, I'm gonna talk to a coach.

I'm actually gonna start processing this and not running from it because I know that on the other side it's gonna be growth and freedom. I. So what resonated with you the most? I want you to write that down, speak it into your phone, and then commit to taking some kind of an action mm-hmm. Based on this, like, do something with this.

Right. You know, like Russ, he's getting on his bike to go to Sturgis in the morning. Early in the morning, I was kind of saying, what are you doing leaving at 3:00 AM in the morning? But he, he's like, I can do it. And that's cool. So, yeah, because he's not very close to. Sturgis right now. But remember the rule.

Remember my rule, Adam's rule? Okay. 20% of transformational change is insight. You're gaining insight from listening to this podcast today. You're gaining insight, listening to podcasts from other people, reading books, talking to your friends. But action is 80% of change. That's the most important part. You have to take action and put your feet on the [00:57:00] ground and do something that's scary.

Yeah. So what uncomfortable action are you gonna take that you were inspired to take from this podcast today? And I'd encourage you to do something in the next 24 hours. I. Talk to somebody. Teach something that you learned today to somebody else. 'cause it's gonna sink in deeper when you teach a concept.

Hey, I learned this today. Yeah, don't even tell 'em where you learned it. Just say, this was inspiring to me, to somebody that you trust. So if you love this episode, put a screenshot on your Instagram feed. Tag me, Adam Gragg, A D A M G R A G g. Love to have you do that. It helps you grow. I really appreciate you and I will respond to each person that reaches out to me as long as it's not over a thousand.

I'm just kidding. As long as there's not too many. I would say the first a hundred. Okay. Have me out to speak live or over zoom. I'd love to engage with you or your team, or have one of my legacy coaches work with you or your team, and I'm gonna leave and sign off the way that I always do.

Make it your mission to live the life now that you want to be remembered for 10 years after you're gone. Yep. 10 years after [00:58:00] you're gone. How do you want people to be talking about you? What do you want them to remember about you? So you decide your legacy No one else. I appreciate you greatly. And I'll see you next time.